Anything Political

[DJ360 6,730]

Govt. has determined 20% or whatever on something approximating to 'average earnings'..  Once people have already pocketed those earnngs...on which most of us live pretty well... Govt decides that the higher rate should be 50%.  This means you only get half of the extra money you didn't need to live on in the first place... but you are still ahead. 

[Brew 5,418]

I had heard of the Kalergi conspiracy, strangely enough it was after Gadhafi claimed that Muslims had no need to fight, they would eventually outbreed us.

Anyone who reads right wing fascist political theory  can hardly claim the moral high ground and be offended by  posts expressing views on immigration.

 

I am a firm believer in free speech, even those I take exception to but sometimes... 

 

The closed minds comment I though was quite a good example of a closed mind in itself. "I know what I know and I know I'm right and don't want to be offended by any other point of view"

Perhaps I should offer my apologies for my biased views and offensive scribblings but I'm sorry I don't see immigrants as invaders, nor do I admire Kalergi...

I'm sorry my sense of reason and  the level of questioning  falls short of expectations.

[PeverilPeril 3,283]

Well Brew - i think that your sense of reasoning is exceptional.

 

If you watched 'The Rise of the Murdoch Dynasty' last night and if most of it is true, then the last Lab Govt owed it's success entirely to Rupert Murdoch and his garbage spewing machine.

[DJ360 6,730]

2 hours ago, PeverilPeril said:

Well Brew - i think that your sense of reasoning is exceptional.

 

True...  It's b****y infuriating inn't it!! 

 

I watched the Murdoch thing last night.  It was horrifying but not remotely surprising.  I suspect we'l learn more about how he has had his dirty hands in all elections.. not just Blair's.

 

Murdoch is a perfect example of why I rarely read newspapers.  They are all mostly concerned, not with reporting 'News', but with shaping public opinion to suit their ends.

 

Worst is just sticking to one right wing lying rag such as the Mail. That really is a horrible paper.  Thing is you can't really balance that by getting such as the Mirror, because ultimately all the major newspapers are owned by 'Big Money' which has its own agenda.

 

The other point of course is..who has time to read a 'balanced' selection of Newspapers.... on a daily basis?

 

 

[Al Duff 21]

On 7/12/2020 at 1:16 AM, DJ360 said:

 

When I studied Politics.. one thing I came away with was that I discovered no answers..but learned to ask a better class of question..

It may well be that: ' It has every right to be independent, if a clear majority wills it' .. But it does not follow that Scotland and its people will be better off as a result.

 

As Johnson and his cronies have discovered.. it really isn't easy to break up even such a small (in Global Terms) area as the British Isles.. and it has created some real issues for the implementation of Brexit. (Whichever side you are on )  This is purely political and has very little to do with the cultural and traditional differences which exist within the British Isles and the UK.

 

It seems to me that 'petty nationalism' and cultural diversity tend to get confused...which is what I was trying to indicate above.  I did also say 'on all sides'.

 

Much of the cause of separatist movements World wide, is at worst the active suppression and at best the neglect, of 'local' culture and tradition.

We saw this in Scotland in the past with the banning of Tartans etc.  Within my memory a politician vowed to starve himself to death if the Welsh Language was not protected. The treatment of Ireland needs no rehearsal from me.

 

China is emerging as a classic example of the type, suppressing as it is Hong Kong, Tibet, Uighur Muslims etc.  This shows a real fear of any sort of non conformity on one level, and a desire to root out potential opposition on another..  eitherway a sign of insecurity.

 

We see issues in Spain with the Catalan separatist movement, also in many other countries.

 

I have no desire to deny anyone Self Determination, but it is rarely that simple.   If Scotland was an island, it would still need defence and other strong economic/political ties with someone.  Same applies to a post-Brexit England/Wales NI.  Thing is I don't believe anybody in the UK Govt is actively concerned with suppressing the differences in culture which exist within the UK and they are surely the most significant issues?

 

You say you studied Politics and it taught you to ask better questions. Good. I teach Politics and also seek to make people ask questions. 

 

You say self-determinism is not simple. Why complicate it? Is everyone who believes in self-determination a simpleton?

 

You say Scotland would still need defences and allies. Yes, it would join England and the rest of the British Isles. Scottish independence is not anti-English; there is none of that nonsense in the Party; most Scots are related to English either now or going back a generation or two, or sideways out through in-laws. 

 

But Scotland is still a distinct nation, not just culturally but historically, linguistically, educationally, etc: it has every right to be so politically.

 

[Brew 5,418]

And the danger is over simplifying what is extremely complex. You can't wave a magic wand and undo 300 years of union. I said earlier we should take Brexit as an example and that's less than 50 years of entanglement.

I have not, so far, heard or read of of any convincing argument that Scotland would benefit from independence. There are plenty of people waving the cross of St Andrew and banging on about the subject but, like Corbyns half baked spending plans, it's long on rhetoric, short on detail.  Economically it will be difficult, Scotland as it is does not have the tax revenue to maintain the status quo.

The Scots are running a huge deficit at the moment and I can't see a way that can be reduced easily. Yes there is a long and proud history but bagpipes and tartan don't pay the rent.

 

Demanding independence now and we'll sort the details later is short sighted and a recipe for disaster 

[notty ash 371]

Sometimes that sort of thing doesn't make any difference. Look at Irish independence, for example. They had an extremely tough time economically for 50+ years afterwards, which could have been foreseen, but it still happened.

[Al Duff 21]

2 hours ago, Brew said:

And the danger is over simplifying what is extremely complex. You can't wave a magic wand and undo 300 years of union. I said earlier we should take Brexit as an example and that's less than 50 years of entanglement.

I have not, so far, heard or read of of any convincing argument that Scotland would benefit from independence. There are plenty of people waving the cross of St Andrew and banging on about the subject but, like Corbyns half baked spending plans, it's long on rhetoric, short on detail.  Economically it will be difficult, Scotland as it is does not have the tax revenue to maintain the status quo.

The Scots are running a huge deficit at the moment and I can't see a way that can be reduced easily. Yes there is a long and proud history but bagpipes and tartan don't pay the rent.

 

Demanding independence now and we'll sort the details later is short sighted and a recipe for disaster 

 

It's not difficult. Scotland - Scotland, no less - is more than capable of independence. All your points are pettifogging rationisations of the status quo. If you lived up here, you would see how silly you sound!

[DJ360 6,730]

5 hours ago, Al Duff said:

But Scotland is still a distinct nation, not just culturally but historically, linguistically, educationally, etc: it has every right to be so politically.

 

I don't recall saying anything to the contrary.  Just like Brew.. I pointed out some pretty obvious pitfalls.

 

Where.. and at what level.. do you teach Politics?

[Brew 5,418]

And sometimes you see more  from outside looking in than inside looking out.

You still have not given a single cogent point in support of your position. Of course they are capable no ones is arguing they're not - the question is whether it's in their best interests.

So far you're not making a very good case and rationalisation seems an excellent way to cut through the hyperbole and misinformation.

I spent some time wandering round the Fort William area not too long ago and my impression was somewhat different to yours- perhaps I only sound silly to you?

[DJ360 6,730]

5 hours ago, Al Duff said:

You say self-determinism is not simple. Why complicate it? Is everyone who believes in self-determination a simpleton?

 

Oh.. Stop it!!  You are completely misquoting me.  I said that the implementation of independence is not simple.. which you turn into me calling people simpletons?  

If that is the level at which you intend to debate.. count me out.

[Brew 5,418]

1 hour ago, notty ash said:

Sometimes that sort of thing doesn't make any difference. Look at Irish independence, for example. They had an extremely tough time economically for 50+ years afterwards, which could have been foreseen, but it still happened.

 

You said it made no difference notty but in fact it did. I'm not that hot on Irish affairs but it seems to me that even though they went through the 'Celtic Tiger' stage they are still broke and have been since 1922. Independence didn't stop them needing the English to bail them out to the tune of almost 4 Billion pounds.

 

Could it have been foreseen? I don't know. Economic predictions are notoriously difficult but as time passes we have more data and garner more experience on which to base decision making. 

 

Will Scotland go it alone? I don't know but I do wonder how much it's going to cost us...

[DJ360 6,730]

6 hours ago, Al Duff said:

You say Scotland would still need defences and allies. Yes, it would join England and the rest of the British Isles. Scottish independence is not anti-English; there is none of that nonsense in the Party; most Scots are related to English either now or going back a generation or two, or sideways out through in-laws. 

 

But Scotland is still a distinct nation, not just culturally but historically, linguistically, educationally, etc: it has every right to be so politically.

 

You claim to teach politics yet you seem to have no grasp of the basics. What you seem to be proposing is that Scotland gets to 'Cherry Pick' what bits of independence it wants.  I've already given you the culture and tradition.. but the Politics is where it gets real.  That's where we talk money, taxation, costs etc..

You don't seem to have much.. or any of that worked out.

 

I'd go so far as to say that your version of Scottish Independence is about as well thought through as 'yer average Brit's' justification for Brexit.

[DJ360 6,730]

7 minutes ago, Brew said:

You said it made no difference notty but in fact it did. I'm not that hot on Irish affairs but it seems to me that even though they went through the 'Celtic Tiger' stage they are still broke and have been since 1922. Independence didn't stop them needing the English to bail them out to the tune of almost 4 Billion pounds.

 

It seems to me that there's a qualitative difference between Ireland and Scotland.

 

Ireland was basically 'Colonised' by England

 

Scotland was quite willingly drawn into the 'Union'.  Of course the Union was at the time was not concerned with mere plebs.. so much as power broking between assorted 'Overlords'

Interesting how it is now revised.

 

Who said 'You can't change History'?

[Brew 5,418]

True but I wasn't considering how they became part of the UK but the effect independence had on the country.

They thought they could make their own future, and they did, but it was not the success many said it would be.

 

Weren't they so short of money at one time they defaulted on loans we gave their farmers? The lessons of history can only enlighten those who look.

 

You're quite right with analogy about Brexit., obviously there are still those who build castles in the air..

[Al Duff 21]

9 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

You claim to teach politics yet you seem to have no grasp of the basics. What you seem to be proposing is that Scotland gets to 'Cherry Pick' what bits of independence it wants.  I've already given you the culture and tradition.. but the Politics is where it gets real.  That's where we talk money, taxation, costs etc..

You don't seem to have much.. or any of that worked out.

 

I'd go so far as to say that your version of Scottish Independence is about as well thought through as 'yer average Brit's' justification for Brexit.

 

 

The Scottish independence cause is fully supported by cogent data and arguments. It will soon be won, so you are wasting your breath. And my time.

[Rob.L 1,090]

Just a couple of points on Ireland. First, they have repaid much of the loan they got from the U.K, with interest.

 

Their growth in GDP before the virus was 8.8% (2018) and 5.5% (2019j, with GDP per capita of almost $78,000.

 

By way of comparison, the U.K. growth was 1.3% (2018) and 1.4% (2019), with GDP per capita of $41,000.
 

 

[Brew 5,418]

We are wandering off topic with Ireland (what thread drift on NS! who would have thought), but I was making the point that gaining independence was not the universal panacea they thought. It's taken nearly 100 years to reach this point and they still needed support from their neighbour along the way.

 

1 hour ago, Al Duff said:

The Scottish independence cause is fully supported by cogent data and arguments. It will soon be won, so you are wasting your breath. And my time.

 

Of course Al... of course.

 

You said you teach others to ask questions, perhaps you'd like to answer a few? Simply saying "Yah boo so there" doesn't really count ...

 

These pages are about politics and political thinking. We argue on these pages, we explore various hypotheses -  what we do not do is quarrel

[Al Duff 21]

2 minutes ago, Brew said:

We are wandering of topic with Ireland (what thread drift on NS! who would have thought), but I was making the point that gaining independence was not the universal panacea they thought. It's taken nearly 100 years to reach this point and they still needed support from their neighbour along the way.

 

 

Of course Al... of course.

 

You said you teach others to ask questions, perhaps you'd like to answer a few? Simply saying "Yah boo so there" doesn't really count ...

 

These pages are about politics and political thinking. We argue on these pages, we explore various hypotheses -  what we do not do is quarrel

 

You say you do not quarrel, but if you fire off words like 'simplistic' and 'you don't understand the basics' you will cause quarrels! That was the only reason I mentioned I taught politics. But to be honest I don't have time for fully-fledged political discussions, so if you don't mind I will bow out, no hard feelings.

[PeverilPeril 3,283]

I wonder if the post Brexit UK will experience a 'Tiger Economy'? Relaxation about taxation and planning issues worked for the Irish before it paid the price, however it did leave them in a better place in the longer term. Investment poured into Ireland from all over the World - mainly from the US multi-nationals. I traded with most of them. 

 

I can't see Scotland going it alone and within the EU for the simple reason of the border. The Irish border won't work - the crooks will be lining up to abuse whatever system is put in. I've been across that border over 100 times on various crossing points before and after they were opened. Unless every singe product is mapped every form of control will be circumnavigated. 

 

If everyone would sit down and think logically, from scratch, about the issues of the UK holding together, there could only be one conclusion. So, we are set out on an illogical course and anything could happen.

 

L

[DJ360 6,730]

3 hours ago, Al Duff said:

The Scottish independence cause is fully supported by cogent data and arguments.

 

Which you appear very unwilling to share with us.

 

Quote

 It will soon be won

 

Possibly.  But you have still provided no evidence to support that assertion.. nor have you provided any evidence that Scotland will be economically better off under independence.

 

Whether I'm wasting my breath is for me to judge.  Whether your time on here is wasted is entirely your choice.

 

 

[Brew 5,418]

2 hours ago, PeverilPeril said:

I wonder if the post Brexit UK will experience a 'Tiger Economy'? Relaxation about taxation and planning issues worked for the Irish before it paid the price, however it did leave them in a better place in the longer term. Investment poured into Ireland from all over the World - mainly from the US multi-nationals. I traded with most of them. 

 

I can't see Scotland going it alone and within the EU for the simple reason of the border. The Irish border won't work - the crooks will be lining up to abuse whatever system is put in. I've been across that border over 100 times on various crossing points before and after they were opened. Unless every singe product is mapped every form of control will be circumnavigated. 

 

If everyone would sit down and think logically, from scratch, about the issues of the UK holding together, there could only be one conclusion. So, we are set out on an illogical course and anything could happen.

 

L

 

You may  well be right. I expected post Brexit to see Johnson pour billions into the economy and create a surge much like the Tiger we spoke of but Covid has rather put a damper on that.

His gleeful 'I told you so' when it comes to election time is now in serious doubt.

 

Post Brexit borders will prove a flashpoint for both crooks and nationalists, especially nationalists if Scotland gains independence, for reasons I'm not going to explore. The borders and the various machinations are worthy of a treatise all its own.

[notty ash 371]

In political terms border controls for goods is more of an issue for the EC than for Johnson & his friends. I could imagine a scenario where we might deliberately hang back on imposing border controls on goods to/from EC countries. That way the EC would have to take the initiative and get all the blame - especially in Ireland.

[Brew 5,418]

A good point notty, I quite agree. Why should we follow Europe's directive and install a 'hard' border? If the Irish want to do it on their side that's up to them

[Al Duff 21]

8 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

Which you appear very unwilling to share with us.

 

8 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

 

Possibly.  But you have still provided no evidence to support that assertion.. nor have you provided any evidence that Scotland will be economically better off under independence.

 

Whether I'm wasting my breath is for me to judge.  Whether your time on here is wasted is entirely your choice.