Anything Political

[Jill Sparrow 10,413]

How very true. 

[DJ360 6,767]

I'll certainly be voting. I always do.

Rather than the standard 'bloke in the street' response of 'they're all as bad', which to me is just lazy thinking.. if thinking at all.. I prefer to vote to increase the likelihood of a fairer society, as I see it.

 

Like many people, I have a dilemma this time.  I've never voted Tory.. ever.., and I can't envisage any situation where I ever would. They simply do not represent my 'world view' at all. 

Even before Thatcher, when the 'post war consensus' still allowed the Tories to accept, and 'run with' , for e.g., the Welfare State and certain Nationalised utilities etc., their underlying 'principles' and certainly their objectives, didn't align with mine. Since Thatcher, and even more so since Brexit, they have tried to wear two opposing hats at the same time, on the one hand attacking our public services, our publicly owned utilities, our legal system and our 800+ year old Democratic tradition... whilst at the same time claiming to be working for a better society for all.  Their arguments simply do not hold water and it's not hard to see that their pursuit of 'neoliberal' economics only works for the already wealthy.

 

Although Jim will doubtless pull me up for raising the spectre of 'neoliberalism' again.. it bears repeating...

 

Neoliberalism basically argues for:

A small state.

Low Taxation.

Less Regulation/Free Markets

Privatisation of ALL Public Services etc.

..and also stands behind Monetarism, Austerity etc.

 

The 'argument' behind Neoliberalsm is that it leads to a more efficient and effective economy, which will make EVERYONE better off.

 

So.. what's not to like with all of the above?

 

Well bluntly, it doesn't work and never has.  The first bit works for those who already control 'Capital'. It enables them to not only run unrestrained Capitalist Business and Finance, without having to bother about the consequences for society as a whole.. the Environment, Public Health, Housing, Employment etc.,etc..and to not only make huge amounts of money..but also to 'Raid' the Public Finances, via Privatisation and 'Outsourcing'. Furthermore, these characters are now busily trying to actually change our Parliamentary and Legal System to let them get away with even more of the same. 

 

The second bit.. the supposed 'Trickle Down', by which we are ALL supposed to benefit from Neoliberal policies.. never arrives... With these characters.. it is always 'Jam Tomorrow'.  Even Sunak yesterday based his speech in the rain around the idea that if we all just wait a bit longer....  Pull the other one Rishi...  You've been sussed!!

 

A few concrete examples of the way in which Neoliberalism has been detrimental to our society include:

Filthy Rivers and increasing Water Bills (Failed Privatisation)

Hopeless Privatised Public Transport.

Potholes. (Local Authorities starved of funding)

The Post Office Scandal (A failure of Regulation)

Grenfell (Also a failure of regulation)

NHS in crisis.

Housing Shortage.

Crumbling Schools.

Etc.Etc.

 

Also, note that those who actively pursue and promote Neoliberal policies, never use the term and prefer not to be 'rumbled'. Also hardly surprising...

 

So what's the alternative to Neoliberalism?  Well of course Thatcher always insisted that there was 'No alternative', but we all saw what she did to UK Industry and Public Services.  Her malign influence is still out there. We're still waiting for the benefits..as we also are for the benefits of Brexit..

 

What we need is a return to sanity.  Re- Privatisation of Water etc.. A proper Tax regime for the super wealthy and Corporate Finance. Proper STATE investment in essential services.. not reliance upon investment from abroad, with strings attached. We also need to rebuild our shattered Education and Training system so that we, the country, dictate what is needed.. not vague 'market forces'. A proper Education and Training system would also work towards reducing our reliance upon Legal Migration, which has been through the roof at the same time as the Tories have been wittering on about Rwanda.

And finally, we really need to stop allowing NeoLiberal forces to continue hiding behind their idiotic 'Household Finance' model of the economy.  They are NOT the same...

 

So where is my Dilemma?  Well, sadly it seems to me that Starmer and Labour are presenting a case which is too deeply reliant upon continuing the NeoLiberal project and is unwilling to challenge it. That said, Starmer has to be wary of the UK press, which is almost all Right Wing, Foreign owned etc., and will go berserk with claims of 'Tax and Spend Labour', if given the slightest chance.. so I can understand him playing a cautious game.

I'll probably vote Labour, though it's largely irrelevant where I live as it's been Labour forever. but my alternative would most likely be The Greens, whose policies are on the left and not in thrall to the Neolib mob.

 

Reform have no answers.  They are just Populist opportunists with a poorly hidden Far Right agenda, preying on people's concerns about migration etc.. and I could easily see them siding with the Tories, much like the DUP did, in a right wing coalition, should the opportunity arise.

 

[philmayfield 6,289]

I’ll be voting. I always have done but this is the first time ever I can’t decide which party to support. Many others are sharing the same dilemma. Labour will probably win on a wave of apathy and a low turnout.

[Cliff Ton 10,555]

More than any other election in recent times, I think many people will vote on the basis of who they don't want rather than who they do want.

[DJ360 6,767]

Well.. @philmayfield, I think I've made it clear that I would NEVER vote Tory, and leaving aside all I've said above, I see it as every voter's duty to do what they can to rid us of the worst Govt. in modern UK history, and more to the point, the dark forces behind them.

 

[Oztalgian 3,398]

4 hours ago, Jill Sparrow said:

I always exercise my franchise. My grandmother was a suffragette and God forbid that I should ever forget how hard women had to fight to get the vote in the first place. However, I do not agree with voting being made compulsory. As with many others, I am not going to be told I must do something, or else.

 

Having said that, I'm not above spoiling my ballot paper where I think none of the tossers is worth voting for.

Spoiling your ballot paper makes an individual feel good of course but it also puts you in the cohort of those who are too stupid or lazy to vote properly and does not send a clear and concise message to the candidates.

Anyone willing to have a stab at what the turnout will be?

A good turnout with people voting to get rid of the Tories or to vote for Independents or other parties

A poor turnout with Labour voters thinking it is in the bag and not bothering to turnout to vote

Some other strange reasons.

[DJ360 6,767]

I'm not sure why so many 'pundits' see a poor turnout as likely.  However disenchanted many might be with the current situation.. they surely understand that there are alternatives who will only get power if voted for?

 

It seems to me that we definitely do get the Govt. we deserve and the last couple have been well deserved by a populus who allowed themselves to be conned by obvious crooks, over Brexit and other issues.

 

On the other hand.. there's the old gag: 'Don't vote.. the government will get in!'

[Oztalgian 3,398]

18 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

The 'argument' behind Neoliberalsm is that it leads to a more efficient and effective economy, which will make EVERYONE better off.

The Conservative government of the day here introduced Neoliberalism and said we would all benefit via the "trickle down" effect of a more efficient and effective economy. It certainly did trickle down, more of a flood to the wealthy mates. It certainly increased the wealth gap, destroyed our hospital system and public services at every level in government, Federal, State and Local Councils.

[Oztalgian 3,398]

2 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

On the other hand.. there's the old gag: 'Don't vote.. the government will get in!'

Here we have a couple of sayings "It doesn't matter who you vote for you still get a politician" and "How do you tell a politician is lying? Their lips are moving"

[DJ360 6,767]

 

 

https://twitter.com/mrhenrymorris/status/1793579688654418322?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1793579688654418322|twgr^a57c0a7ec87dcf70890838a0aafa0579e00e32e2|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpinkfishmedia.net%2Fforum%2Fthreads%2Fgeneral-election-2024.292615%2Fpage-6

[philmayfield 6,289]

It just illustrated what a complete pillock Sunak is to stand outside Number 10 and deliver a speech in the pouring rain. Had It been Starmer I would have understood it!

[Beekay 5,271]

1 hour ago, Oztalgian said:

Here we have a couple of sayings "It doesn't matter who you vote for you still get a politician" and "How do you tell a politician is lying? Their lips are moving"

My mum once said, many years ago, " Don't matter who you vote for, the Government allus get in".

True, honest.

[Brew 5,484]

Surprisingly I'm in agreement with most of Col's post, unsurprisingly there are parts I don't.

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

Rather than the standard 'bloke in the street' response of 'they're all as bad', which to me is just lazy thinking..

I'd be reluctant to call those with little to no interest in politics 'lazy', it would apply to a considerable percentage of eligible voters, many simply disillusioned with the sorry state of the political situation and more importantly, politicians. 

 

Neoliberalism, Col you're correct, for reasons I'm at a loss to articulate it irritates me in much the same way hyperbole does you though both are perfectly proper words.

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

Filthy Rivers and increasing Water Bills (Failed Privatisation)

Hopeless Privatised Public Transport.

Potholes. (Local Authorities starved of funding)

The Post Office Scandal (A failure of Regulation)

Grenfell (Also a failure of regulation)

NHS in crisis.

Housing Shortage.

Crumbling Schools.

 

Water... agreed

Potholes, maybe councils should spend money for its intended purpose...

The PO, has little to do with regulation and more to do with criminal activity by senior management

Grenfell, the regulations were there but ignored

NHS is in a crisis. Mainly caused by paying millions in interest on Labour initiated PFC schemes

There is a shortage of council houses, why?  It makes no sense to me for councils of all shades to hand over their housing stock to associations whose prime motive is profit. 

 

Define crumbling schools 

 

The alternative to neoliberalism is post-neoliberalism sometimes called anti-neoliberalism but mostly socialism.

 

The super rich? Close the tax loopholes by all means, but I see no reason anyone should pay more than their dues simply based on the size of their bank account.

 

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

We also need to rebuild our shattered Education and Training system so that we, the country, dictate what is needed.. 

 

Sounds OK but what does "we the country, dictate what is needed" actually mean? Who is 'we' and how do 'we' know what is needed?

 

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

And finally, we really need to stop allowing NeoLiberal forces to continue hiding behind their idiotic 'Household Finance' model of the economy.  They are NOT the same.

 

 Perhaps if they paid closer attention to Mr Micawber we would not be in the worst economic situation in our history. Chasing an ever increasing spiral of debt through a policy of borrowing and deficit spending is not the best idea I've ever heard of.

The more we spend the more we need to borrow. The more we borrow the more we pay interest. the more we pay interest the less we have to spend. the less we have to spend the more we need to borrow..............

 

Who to vote for... A dilemma I share, it will not be Tory, nor will it be "I have no idea and no personality Starmer".

The idea of playing his cards close to his chest is quite frankly nonsense. I want to know his intentions, his policies and not just pie in the sky promises. However, we are supposed to vote on manifesto policies not personalities...

 

From the Labour manifesto:

 

"When the general election comes around, the Labour manifesto will include our detailed and fully-costed plans to deliver our missions and change the country for the better"

 

So basically, they don't have one.

 

I do not trust Reform but it's folly to disparage them by calling them populist opportunists. To be populist must by definition mean what they do and say many agree with and is therefore popular. I can see some viewing them as a tempting protest vote.

 

Greens are dreamers and in need of a good dose of reality.

 

Liberal Democrats.... who? Their manifesto is simply wishful thinking with no substance whatsoever.

 

Sir Mayfield is spot on:

Labour will probably win on a wave of apathy and a low turnout.

 

 

[benjamin1945 16,297]

First General election  i recall  was 1951..........Bestwood and Bulwell were very working class....and i recall the Conservatives (Winston Churchill).........getting back in power..........i was only 6 but along with probably 50 other kids..remember walking along Leybourne drive behind a Labour Van which was reminding people to Vote.........A house on Leybourne at the top of Hove road was sporting a large Picture of Winston...this was very rare for Bestwood and was met with much 'Booing'....The occupant was a Manager where my mother worked at Pearsons lace factory in Basford.......funny how i can recall all the above from being only 6.........

                              What i could'nt recall so looked it up....was the Conservative  Majority of 17 seats and a turnout of 82%.........Highest ever i believe...

[Brew 5,484]

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

and more to the point, the dark forces behind them.

You do like your 'dark forces' conspiracy Col... 

 

[Brew 5,484]

9 minutes ago, benjamin1945 said:

First General election  i recall  was 1951.

I can't remeber1951 election. My first memory of a political campaign was at Clifton where a neighbour kept chanting

"Percy Holland is the man and we'll have if we can" to which my dad made a most unneighbourly reply...

[benjamin1945 16,297]

How things have changed.............imagine a 6 year old treking with just other kids doing that today.....and being Politcal enough to 'boo'...The great 'Churchill''......think as daft as it sounds we understood a little too..........

[Jill Sparrow 10,413]

Are those the same 'dark forces ' the late HMQ warned the late Princess Diana's butler (Paul Burrell) about?  Who would have thought it? But then...who would have thought HMQ kept a marmalade sandwich in her handbag...for emergencies?

[Brew 5,484]

Paul Burrlell, quite and odious man in my opinion, but he must know where the bodies are buried to get away with nicking £4 millions worth of Dianas goodies.

[Cliff Ton 10,555]

3 hours ago, benjamin1945 said:

First General election  i recall  was 1951.........

 

The first one I paid any close attention to was 1970. Late in the evening by chance I started watching the first results on TV, and to my surprise I stayed watching well into the middle of the night.

 

At that same election, I saw Harold Wilson when he visited Clifton and stood at the open upstairs window of someone's house and addressed the crowd with a megaphone/loud hailer.

[letsavagoo 969]

7 hours ago, Oztalgian said:

Spoiling your ballot paper makes an individual feel good of course but it also puts you in the cohort of those who are too stupid or lazy to vote properly and does not send a clear and concise message to the candidates.

Can’t agree with this. As it stands here voting isn’t compulsory. Even the two most active political pundits here both have reservations as to who to vote for. I’m almost certain that I will not vote. I’m not stupid or lazy but why should I vote. Just for the sake of it or just because I can. I don’t believe any of the parties are worthy to run a bath let alone my country. I have absolutely no confidence in any current party. If I can’t vote with conviction then in my opinion the honest thing to do is not vote. 

[Jill Sparrow 10,413]

My thoughts precisely, Letsavagoo. I don't consider myself stupid or lazy, either.  If I don't consider any of the candidates to represent parties who merit having the power to govern, I have every right to state my view on the ballot paper. Of course, it won't make the running of this country any better but neither will the parties who are likely to win.

[Brew 5,484]

17 minutes ago, letsavagoo said:

I have absolutely no confidence in any current party. If I can’t vote with conviction then in my opinion the honest thing to do is not vote. 

 

Currently, you are fully entitled to withhold support from policies or personalities that fail to convince you, but do you not think that withholding your vote rather negates your option to complain or criticise?

The old argument "don't blame me I didn't vote" is not, in my view, valid.

 

 

[letsavagoo 969]

49 minutes ago, Brew said:

 but do you not think that withholding your vote rather negates your option to complain or criticise?

No.

54 minutes ago, Brew said:

don't blame me I didn't vote" is not, in my view, valid.

I cannot in all conscience vote if there isn’t anyone worth voting for. The concept is ridiculous to me. My view is not ‘don’t blame me’ but thank goodness I didn’t vote ‘them’ in. 

It will be the first time in a general election that I won’t vote.

[Brew 5,484]

Fair enough but there will never be a perfect system, there never has been and never will be.

Every time we vote it involves compromise, but to be fair I have a degree of sympathy with your view.

I have never witnessed such a display of greed, incompetence, and blatant dishonesty among candidates from both sides of the political spectrum.

It is of course entirely possible it's always been this way and the information age simply brings it all into focus.