Anything Political

[Brew 5,421]

9 hours ago, DJ360 said:

No.  That's at odds with your usual stance.  You normally adopt a very pragmatic, logical position.  'few even care' isn't pragmatic.  It's the sort of supposition you often accuse me of. 

 

It's the impression I get talking to various people. Few even want to discuss it and "can't be doing with it" is quite often a phrase I hear. You're right it's not pragmatic in the true sense of the word, it's just how it seems to me at the moment. Whether they will continue not caring when the consequences start to bite I don't know.

 

48 minutes ago, Jill Sparrow said:

I too voted Leave, Alpha, and I'm sick and tired of being told by all and sundry who voted otherwise that I am too dim...

 

I don't think I have ever said that either directly or by implication. If you have interpreted  anything I have written as such then I assure it was not meant that way.

[philmayfield 6,145]

I voted to remain as I knew ‘leave’ would result in one unholy mess. How right I was! There’s still more to come.

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

I never stated that you did say that, Brew. It is certainly the case that there are plenty of patronising folk beyond the bounds of this forum who leap at the chance to inform Leave voters of their folly, stupidity, shortsightedness...call it what you will.

 

Personally, I believe we should afford people the courtesy of freedom to express their preferences without berating them for so doing or virtually issuing a subpoena with the demand that they explain themselves.

 

If I break the law, I expect to be called to account for my actions. For merely exercising my franchise and expressing my opinion, I expect to be left alone to do so in peace and not harangued by those whose views differ from mine. Again, I am speaking of wider bounds than this forum.

 

Being the person I am, if I suffer negative consequences as a result of my vote, I will do so with equanimity and no one will hear me complaining.

[Waddo 921]

The outcome will be what it is and people should not assume that they are right all the time, just because it goes against they're way of thinking. Unfortunately, politics work exactly the same way.  As once was said, the only person to enter parliament with true intentions, was Guy Fawkes. 

[philmayfield 6,145]

I would never criticise a ‘leaver’. I didn’t vote to join the EEC many years ago at the first poll but now that we are in we seem to be inextricably tangled. I shall watch the disentanglement with interest and hope for a successful outcome.

[Waddo 921]

My words exactly, Phil. (Or sentiments, whatever fits)

[DJ360 6,730]

I do accept that nobody has to give their reasons for voting one way or another in any election/referendum etc.  But if those voters are going to get into any debate about it.. it seems to me they ought to be able to at least give some account of their reasoning.

 

It seems to me that the reason so many people have said disparaging things about leave voters is that Leave voters and Leave Campaigners haven't really done themselves any favours. 

 

Let's just deal with the name calling first.  It wasn't long before 'Remainers' were being called 'Remoaners' ...  with assorted adverbs such as 'Whingeing'. etc.

 

The worst I've seen as a descriptor for 'Leavers' are things such as 'Brexiter',   'Brexiteer' and sometimes the rather childish 'Brexshiter'.

 

Yes.. I know that the intelligence of leave voters has been impuned too, by some, but I believe it would not happen if those voting leave could, or would, articulate their reasons.

 

So.  Let's examine the reasons put forward by the assorted 'Leave' campaigns.  We've been here before I'm certain but it's important to re-visit these things in the light of what we now know.. and to inform what we see happening next as the Brexit process proceeds... or doesn't.

 

'Taking back control of our money.' So.. £ 350 million per week for the NHS.  That one was quietly dropped by 'Leave'. after they'd got their tiny majority and after it was conclusively demonstrated by both political and impartial sources that it was just, basically, a lie.

It was related to the arguments that we are 'Net Contributors', to the EU.  Yes, we pay in more in 'membership fees', than we get back in 'grants/freebies' etc.  but we gain vastly more in trade advantages by being in Tarriff Free zones etc... something which seems to escape many.

 

'Taking Back Control of Our Borders' /Immigration'.  This one would be funny if it wasn't so shot through with unspoken Racism/Xenophobia and plain ignorance etc.  The fact is that there is Freedom of Movement for workers between all EU countries. And it works both ways. This has been deliberately portrayed by some, especially by UKIP, but also by Johnson only days before the recent election as an 'open door' immigration policy.  There is absolutely no doubt that many people are incapable of distinguishing between those who enter the UK legally as EU workers, and those who enter legally from other (often obviously  ethnically different) countries.. and those who enter illegally from wherever. 

I've read and heard idiotic things said about how 'illegal immigrants get all the houses'.  'You can't get a hospital appointment because they're full of foreigners and 'health tourists.'  It is a matter of moments to find the facts to disprove this rubbish.

 

'We need to take back control of our Laws'.  Our Laws are made by Parliament.  Most of what we get from the EU, are 'Directives', which we comply with if we want to be part of the EU Club, and get its benefits. The EU does not 'make our laws'.  Repeat.. The EU does not make our Laws.  Think about that for a moment.  If, as some say.. the EU is 'keeping us against our will'. then surely, they could just 'make our Laws' to stop us leaving.. yet.. curiously.. they haven't.

 

'Make Britain Great Again'. The key here is to first confirm whether Britain was ever 'Great' in the first place.  Of course.. there is no doubt that Britain was , for a time, the most powerful nation in the World.  'Great'.. on the other hand.. is a matter of opinion.  We got our massive World dominating economic power by invading and subjugating other nations.  It's all very 19th C and although the Empire brought huge wealth.. it did not bring it to all.. and the 19th C combined huge British economic power.. with grinding poverty, disease, child mortality etc., of which the 'Empire on Which the Sun Never Sets'.. should have been ashamed. 

 

Food Banks anyone?

 

Let's look at another angle here..  This is the one which examines why people in economically disadvantaged and run down areas voted 'Leave'.  These areas are now famous as those 'Traditional Labour' ones which voted 'Tory', for the first time since forever.. last week.

 

What do our 'Leave' friends have to say about those areas?  Well. it seems to me not much.  I know for a fact.. ( because I worked on them) that all sorts of regeneration projects funded by the EU, were enacted in those areas.. yet the good denizens of those areas were persuaded that all of their problems were down.. not to the UK Govt., which destroyed their industries and employment, but to the 'evil' EU., which funded attempts at regeneration.

 

Are we seeing a pattern here yet?

 

What are the benefits of Leave?

 

I honestly don't know.  I can't think of any.. but much more significantly.. I've never met a Leave voter who could spell them out.

 

I've asked.. until I am blue in the face.  I'm open to argument.  Convince me!!.. But nope.  I'm none the wiser.

 

Those who recall the early 'post referendum' days, will recall the likes of David Davies saying words to the effect that 'Getting Trade Deals' would be 'Easy'.  ISTR someone saying it would be 'The easiest deal ever'

 

I'm still waiting.....

 

Much more recently.  I.E. Last week.  We had Boris Johnson telling us that he had an 'Oven Ready' deal for leaving the EU.  The association with Christmas, Oven Ready Turkeys and Voting is surely hardly a coincidence?  He's laughing up his sleeve.

 

How many 'post EU' Trade deals do we have in place?  I'm open to correction.. but I think it is.. err.. None.

 

Just saying..

 

 

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

On 12/14/2019 at 12:39 PM, Alpha said:

For one, I voted in the referendum for LEAVE. Absolute!

 

I was not so naïve to think it would be without disagreement or dissension but, deal or no deal, it was OUT regardless. The Referendum was cast with agreement of Parliament until the dissenting remain members refused to accept the peoples' will. 

 

No.  What you fail to recognise is that MINORITY Govs under both May and Johnson, brought 'leave' deals which Parliament was not prepared to endorse.  This is entirely within the powers of Parliament.  Parliament did not block 'leave'.. but only the 'leave' deal. Now that Johnson's Govt has a majority. it will be abke to push through whatever leave deal it wishes.  The consequences remain to be seen.

 

On 12/14/2019 at 12:39 PM, Alpha said:

Thursday's vote, which finally won the day, confirmed the majority vote and faced down those who chose to undermine their decision to leave the EU.  

 

No.  You STILL do not understand.  Nobody in Parliament is voting to stop us leaving.  ALL votes have been on the DEAL for leaving, and all DEALS have been defeated.

 

On 12/14/2019 at 12:39 PM, Alpha said:

Parliament, including the Referendum dissenters, are the servants of the electorate, not vice versa, as the dissenter's appear to have conveniently forgotten, until Thursday's vote when the electorate, without force or compulsion, exercised their will and direction. 

 

 

Do you need it spelling out again?  The electorate voted to install a Tory Govt.  Any other assumption is just that.. assumption.

 

On 12/14/2019 at 12:39 PM, Alpha said:

As an aside, politicians are notoriously of a devious, and at times incompetent, nature. It could be suggested that keeping politicians out of trade and letting the market decide on their own trading rules might be worth further consideration. 

 

Wow! Your capacity for assumption is massive.

 

1. I was an elected politician.  I made the dizzy heights of Chairman of the Parish Council.  I have the badge and photo to prove it.  I spent my whole time fighting for those who elected me.. and often put myself against the Party I represented.  If you think it's so easy.. you know what to do.

 

2. Letting the market decide.  Really?  So.. you want to dispose of Trade relations which for hundreds of years have sought to protect the interests of a country, over the interests of an international corporation?  You want to expose this tiny country to the economic and bullying might of China, the USA, etc?  You want to let them.. do to us...what we in our 'pomp'.. did to them?

 

Be careful what you wish for.

[Brew 5,421]

The 'vote leave' web site is still up for anyone who wants to check the benefits claimed for leaving:

 

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

 

I am, as some know, a remoaner and I agree with Col although rehashing Brexit and the reasoning behind it serves no real or useful purpose. It's not the case that leavers will not articulate their reasoning, indeed why should they? But more a case of they cannot express why they are so anti-EU. Many know now that the main planks of the leave argument have been disproved and dismantled but still they remain enthusiastic to leave.

I've said many times logic and reason have been replaced by emotive and illogical speculation. Does that make them wrong? Not really, they simply arrived at their decision by a different route. 

Boris the Bul..... has an oven ready deal does him? Does he hell as like. He's acting like the decision is in his gift and the EU will just smile and say OK..

The only way he can have a ready to go deal is:

1. It's leave with no deal at all.

2. It gives in to every demand the EU are making i.e. a £70 Billion compensation package.

3. He's lying as usual.

 

But leave is done and done so I say again, rehashing it serves little to no purpose.

 

Parliament did not technically block Brexit but that was in essence the result of rejecting the deals as  presented.

 

Letting the 'markets decide' i.e. unfettered capitalism is a throw back to Thatcherism and the self absorbed 80's, yuppies and Filofaxes. I don't know the extent of Alpha's experience but it was not the best of times for many people. The US is the leading exponent of the dog eat dog economy and it's plain for everyone to see, except Americans, that their society is imploding.

Their economic strength to dictate terms to the world is fading, the new kid on the block is China.

 

The opposite of that is the Corbyn/McDonnell model of state control and a command economy. The prime example of which is the NHS where costs are raging out of control, pettifogging beaurocrats build little empires and efficiency is abysmal; unless something drastic happens we are going to lose it.

 

 

[siddha 825]

Well Brew that is a neat summary of the Horlicks that has evolved for a range of spurious reasons.

Hey...…….. I like my Filofax and still use it 

[Alpha 176]

Whatever your opinion is, the political, economic and social will of the people has prevailed following the ‘Great Thursday’.

R

egarding the EU negotiating hierarchy, I was repelled and disgusted by the arrogant example of a union of so-called nations that faced a singular rebellion against their rigid dogma.

As Britons we had sit and listen to their vile and bitter rhetoric of the moves, they were prepared to make against us, for daring to thwart further and closer union with the EU.

Two world wars were fought in an often doubtful crusade in saving Europe from the Nazi maniac. This was their example, the acidic bile directed upon us and we were supposed to listen quietly, acquiesce and crumble at their feet.

Thatcher may not have pleased everyone all of the time but she would have at least stood up to the vitriolic abuse that emanated form the EU bullies.

We’re getting out, staying out, so get used to it and at least put your energies into going forward and not looking over your shoulder, wringing your hands, that had we not left we would have drowned in the mire of costly laws and bureaucracy handed down to us as the table sweepings for an enfeebled sub-nation.   

[DJ360 6,730]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Whatever your opinion is, the political, economic and social will of the people has prevailed following the ‘Great Thursday’.

 

 

The Tories won an election.  Quite what will happen to the 'will of the people' is yet to be seen.  But, as I've already observed. Liar Johnson and his crew have no excuses now.  They own Brexit.. which was their project from its inception and they will own the consequences. Or will they?  On past form they and their media buddies will lie and spin every setback and every negative consequence.  Everything will be the fault of Europe, or Labour, or someone other than those in power.

 

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Regarding the EU negotiating hierarchy, I was repelled and disgusted by the arrogant example of a union of so-called nations that faced a singular rebellion against their rigid dogma.

 

As Britons we had sit and listen to their vile and bitter rhetoric of the moves, they were prepared to make against us, for daring to thwart further and closer union with the EU.

 

Two world wars were fought in an often doubtful crusade in saving Europe from the Nazi maniac. This was their example, the acidic bile directed upon us and we were supposed to listen quietly, acquiesce and crumble at their feet.

 

I acknowledge that I can be argumentative at times. but here I'm not being argumentative.. just mystified.  You are making totally unsubstantiated allegations of 'vile and bitter' rhetoric, yet you quote none.  Can you support your statement with evidence?  I heard nothing of the sort, and instead heard numerous EU representatives expressing sadness and disappointment that we were leaving. Others indicated that there was still time for us to reverse our decision, or that we could re-join in the future.

 

The first World war was nothing to do with the then non existent EU, and the then non existent Nazis, though clearly it's consequences.. as much Britain's fault as anyone's, led directly to WW2.  The Second World War was indeed fought against the Nazis and their allies, and while it is true that Britain 'stood alone', for a few months against Hitler, and whilst I take nothing away from those whose courage and perseverance enabled that stand, I fail to see your point. WW1 Germany was defeated by the combined efforts of France, Russia, the USA, many smaller countries and large contingents from the British Empire.  I doubt Britain alone would have done so.  Simlarly in WW2, after our brief 'lone defiance', we were helped just a tad by Russia, the USA, yet more of our Empire and numerous others opposed to Nazism.  The courage and scarifice of huge numbers of people in mainland Europe is undeniable.  So.. again.. what is your point?

All I can infer from your post is a rather elaborately obscured version of 'We saved them in two World Wars and this is how they treat us'.. which is really no argument at all.

[Brew 5,421]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

We’re getting out, staying out, so get used to it

 

I think it's not easy to reply to that Alpha particularly when the remaniners here have said repeatedly they have accepted we will leave. The time for aggressive statements has gone, (If it was ever appropriate)

 

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

 I was repelled and disgusted by the arrogant example of a union of so-called nations that faced a singular rebellion against their rigid dogma.

 

This is a bit of mystery and I'd like to know which example you are thinking of. As an aside how do you have a 'so called nation'?

 

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

Two world wars were fought in an often doubtful crusade in saving Europe from the Nazi maniac. This was their example, the acidic bile directed upon us and we were supposed to listen quietly, acquiesce and crumble at their feet.

 

 Err I think only one was against Nazism, there was no such thing in WW1. Another example I'm at a loss to understand nor can I remember any 'vitriolic abuse' or 'acidic bile'.

 

I don't say you are wrong but so far all I have read is a diatribe of rhetoric and no facts.

[DJ360 6,730]

10 hours ago, Brew said:

Letting the 'markets decide' i.e. unfettered capitalism is a throw back to Thatcherism and the self absorbed 80's, yuppies and Filofaxes. I don't know the extent of Alpha's experience but it was not the best of times for many people. The US is the leading exponent of the dog eat dog economy and it's plain for everyone to see, except Americans, that their society is imploding.

Their economic strength to dictate terms to the world is fading, the new kid on the block is China.

 

On your first sentence Brew, Laissez-Faire economics.. which Alpha appears to support, has a long history.. going back in recognisable form to at least the 18th C and possibly most famously espoused in Adam Smith's 'Wealth of Nations'. 

 

I'd go further and say that we are still feeling the very real negative effects of Thatcherism in the continuing collapse of our manufacturing industry and increased dependence on 'service' and 'Financial' industries... the latter of which is I think likely to suffer, alongside what's left of our manufacturing, as a result of Brexit.  Thatcher's main plank of economic policy was, as I recall, Monetarism.. as mainly espoused by Friedman. 

But, I for one see Thatcher's monetarist economics less as a belief system, than a deliberate use of a convenient policy framework to support the achievement of her political aims.. those of course largely featuring the crushing of trade unions, and the dismantling of the State.  I draw an absolute parallel between Thatcher's misuse of economics for her own ends, and Osborne's use of austerity for similar purposes. Neither were truly employed to help the country, so much as to shift the balance of power and wealth, between the many and the few and between the state and private sectors.

 

I absolutely agree about both the US and China which is why I've consistently argued that to associate ourselves with either by welcoming Chinese investment, or seeking one sided Trade Deals with the US, is very much a case of backing the wrong horse.  I genuinely believe our lot is best thrown in with Europe.

 

10 hours ago, Brew said:

The opposite of that is the Corbyn/McDonnell model of state control and a command economy. The prime example of which is the NHS where costs are raging out of control, pettifogging beaurocrats build little empires and efficiency is abysmal; unless something drastic happens we are going to lose it.

 

Well yes, you are broadly correct, re: the essentially Keynesian approach of Labour. but I think it's a bit rich to associate that with an NHS which has been largely sub contracted out to the Private Sector and has been under the control of the Tories for nine years.

[Alpha 176]

51 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

 

The Tories won an election.  Quite what will happen to the 'will of the people' is yet to be seen.  But, as I've already observed. Liar Johnson and his crew have no excuses now.  They own Brexit.. which was their project from its inception and they will own the consequences. Or will they?  On past form they and their media buddies will lie and spin every setback and every negative consequence.  Everything will be the fault of Europe, or Labour, or someone other than those in power.

 

 

I acknowledge that I can be argumentative at times. but here I'm not being argumentative.. just mystified.  You are making totally unsubstantiated allegations of 'vile and bitter' rhetoric, yet you quote none.  Can you support your statement with evidence?  I heard nothing of the sort, and instead heard numerous EU representatives expressing sadness and disappointment that we were leaving. Others indicated that there was still time for us to reverse our decision, or that we could re-join in the future.

 

The first World war was nothing to do with the then non existent EU, and the then non existent Nazis, though clearly it's consequences.. as much Britain's fault as anyone's, led directly to WW2.  The Second World War was indeed fought against the Nazis and their allies, and while it is true that Britain 'stood alone', for a few months against Hitler, and whilst I take nothing away from those whose courage and perseverance enabled that stand, I fail to see your point. WW1 Germany was defeated by the combined efforts of France, Russia, the USA, many smaller countries and large contingents from the British Empire.  I doubt Britain alone would have done so.  Simlarly in WW2, after our brief 'lone defiance', we were helped just a tad by Russia, the USA, yet more of our Empire and numerous others opposed to Nazism.  The courage and scarifice of huge numbers of people in mainland Europe is undeniable.  So.. again.. what is your point?

All I can infer from your post is a rather elaborately obscured version of 'We saved them in two World Wars and this is how they treat us'.. which is really no argument at all.

We made, amongst others, sacrifices towards the expulsion of invaders from European soil. The armies fielded by Poland, Belgium and Netherlands collapsed almost immediately. France lasted slightly longer. The point raised here is that the UK and her Dominions with minimal reserves put the effort in at the beginning.

 

The fact that we now, by referendum, chose to decline greater unity and further adherence to EU values were met with contempt. The ‘will’ of the people, the electorate, was put to the test and confirmed.

 

Boris Johnson may have many faults, only time will tell. Boris stated his main objective, unlike Corbyn who never did.

[Brew 5,421]

Yes I agree about the economic  history but I try to keep things more succinct, more easily digestible and to the point. I'm not going to get into a discussion of the Blessed Margaret, suffice to say I voted both for and against her.

 

The NHS has been out of control for years and governments of both flavours have sought to solve its problems by throwing money at it rather than finding a proper solution. I realise it's heresy to decry the jewel in the socialist crown but take the blinkers off and it's obvious it cannot carry on the way it is at the moment.

 

[DJ360 6,730]

24 minutes ago, Alpha said:

We made, amongst others, sacrifices towards the expulsion of invaders from European soil. The armies fielded by Poland, Belgium and Netherlands collapsed almost immediately. France lasted slightly longer. The point raised here is that the UK and her Dominions with minimal reserves put the effort in at the beginning.

The fact that we now, by referendum, chose to decline greater unity and further adherence to EU values were met with contempt. The ‘will’ of the people, the electorate, was put to the test and confirmed.

Boris Johnson may have many faults, only time will tell. Boris stated his main objective, unlike Corbyn who never did.

 

A rather glib re writing of history I think, but at least you seem to have dropped references to 'bitter rhetoric' and 'acidic bile'.

 

We really didn't fight Hitler totally out of concern for Europe.  If we hadn't fought him, we'd have had to accept his domination of Europe and most likely invasion of the UK.

[DJ360 6,730]

4 hours ago, Alpha said:

Boris stated his main objective, unlike Corbyn who never did.

 

Boris stated 'Get Brexit Done'.. which.. if you think about it.. is pretty meaningless, since he will either have to go for No Deal.. or he'll have to go through the process of implementing his deal and then the protracted process of disentaglement.  This means he will be no more effective than anyone else who wants to deliver Brexit, and quite possibly less.

 

The other point of course is that there are many other objectives which Boris clearly has.. but has made much less noise about.  I once more refer you to p. 48 of the Tory manifesto.  If that doesn't worry you, then your insistence on democracy and the 'will of the people' looks like mere words.

 

Corbyn recognised that both his party and the nation was split over Brexit and ofered to act as an 'honest broker'.  Clearly not the best ever election winner.. but at least honest.

[Brew 5,421]

In the Russian press one commentator said "the best slogan won". Think about it for a moment 'for the many, not the few' and 'get Brexit done'. which is snappier? whilst neither can be said to be specific the Labour slogan is more esoteric and decidedly passive voice, the Tory slogan is much more assertive and identifiable in it's intent.

 

I accept the manifesto is worrying but now that he has a good majority he may not pursue it.

 

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Corbyn recognised that both his party and the nation was split over Brexit and offered to act as an 'honest broker'.

 

A very weak excuse Col, something better known as prevarication and indecision.

[DJ360 6,730]

It wasn't meant as an excuse Brew.  It was an alternative take on what Alpha said.

[DJ360 6,730]

Meanwhile, Johnson is already making noises about legislation to enforce an end to the Brexit process by the end of 2020.. Deal or No Deal.  That will play well with the hard leave crowd because they've already swallowed the idea that the EU is slowing things down.

 

Nicky Morgan elevated to the Lords.  Not quite sure how that works.. but it seems wrong to me.  Seems Boris is planning to pack the Upper House with loads more Tory Brexiter Lords.

 

Democracy? 

 

 

 

 

[HSR 286]

Wasn't familiar with Morgan.. disgraceful.

I wish the existence of the house of lord's was put to a referendum..

 

Relating to buzz phrase's

..Algorithm's were employed by the  Boris team, simplified, keep saying the same thing and people will believe it.

Haven't we heard that before about 80 years ago.....?

 

I was all for TV debates etc..circa 2010, I now feel, the less exposure the better. Politics  and people's futures should be exempt from the media circus.

 

 

[Brew 5,421]

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

It wasn't meant as an excuse Brew.  It was an alternative take on what Alpha said.

 

It's not your excuse it's Labours and Corbyn trying to explain his total lack of commitment and leadership. 

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Meanwhile, Johnson is already making noises about legislation to enforce an end to the Brexit process by the end of 2020

 

So we have gone from 'oven ready' to 'we need another year'. Will it ever end...

 

[HSR 286]

Food Banks anyone?

 

After such a long post...why is this only 3 words long?

 

The definition of poverty & the users of food banks surely deserves more expansion. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HSR 286]

On 12/16/2019 at 1:08 AM, DJ360 said:

Food Banks anyone?

 

Amazing lack of detail.. 3 words..considering such a lengthy post,

 

not interested in a median..of a median

 

While both convenient..

are cars a necessity nowdays?  or should they be considered a luxury like a smart mobile phone?