Anything Political

[oldphil 331]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:48 AM, DJ360 said:

I'm in favour of 'stopping the boats', for the humanitarian reasons trotted out by many, even Braverman. 

I think that what the government hoped would happen was that the first few boatloads to be actually sent to Rwanda would signal real intent and deter the remainder from attempting a crossing.

[DJ360 6,730]

22 hours ago, Brew said:

 Which is the point I'm making. Sunak raised it in a speech at the Granada meeting of 50 heads of government. Sadly i think it fell on deaf ears as did the Armenia and Balkan situation which were  the prime reasons for the meeting.

 

I broadly agree, but it's taken Sunak and the UK an awfully long time to begin to talk about 'global' migratory pressures, which affect us all in one way or another.

 

22 hours ago, Brew said:

A point I missed. The Border Force did not come into being until 2012. Up to that point the there was a mishmash...

 

From Wiki: 

In 2005, the border enforcement functions of HMCE were transferred (along with the organisation responsible for them) to HMRC; but in 2008 they were again transferred (at least in part) to the new UK Border Agency of the Home Office,[13] which due to various failings was itself disbanded in 2012, whereupon a new UK Border Force was established with border enforcement responsibilities and powers.

 

My point to this is there were 25,000 employees in the old setup and still failing. Today we have less than half and whilst maybe not perfect seem to be at least competent in what they do.

 

Whilst I agree that the picture re: both staffing, funding and organisation of our Border Control/Migration systems has been somewhat muddy since 2010, I'm not convinced that the present arrangements are either sufficient, or competent. The processing of Asylum Applications is far too slow, which results in both successful and unsuccessful applicants becoming 'trapped' in a system which is costly, socially divisive etc.

 

Returning to the Migration figures released a couple of weeks ago...

 

The major debate then was not about  'The Boats', which as I said Govt. seems to have given up on but for its Rwanda efforts, but the levels of LEGAL migration.

 

 

On 12/4/2023 at 4:10 AM, Brew said:

On 12/3/2023 at 11:52 PM, DJ360 said:

But this is entirely the point.  The reason that the Tories are struggling with LEGAL immigration, which was the subject of just as much debate as the boats last week

Not so, the point is illegal immigration, and drifting into different fiscal policy is merely muddying the water.

 

Migrant workers rather than being discouraged are, as far as I can see, much in demand in agriculture and many famers have appeared on  TV news to say so. The old saw of working for peanuts has long gone

 

You seem determined to ignore LEGAL migration, and its ramifications., especially with regard to Govt. policies on Employment and Training. So let's just set 'The Boats' aside for now and see what Cleverly and Co come up with.

 

So back onto LEGAL migration. This was the BIG migration story a couple of weeks ago, and again this week as Govt. tries to respond.

 

I think we can deal with Agricultural work easily enough.  Migrant Agricultural workers as I understand it, tended to come from Europe and to follow the work according to the seasons.  When the work disappeared, so did they, in pursuit of work elsewhere. 

Let's not forget that much of that Migration, was part of the Freedom of Movement enabled by the EU, and in my view so idiotically misrepresented and unceremoniously dumped, after Brexit, along with many other benefits. Eitherway, that aspect of migration was largely accepted and suited both the migrants and the farmers. Let's not get into the'moral' aspects at this point.

 

So now.. onto other elements of LEGAL migration.

 

It's all here, in the Govt.'s own words.

 

Quote

3.1 Work

There were 321,101 grants to main applicants on work visas, 45% higher than in the year ending June 2022, largely due to increases in the ‘Skilled Worker’ visas.

‘Skilled Worker’ visa grants have increased by 34% (+17,610) in the past year to 69,421. ‘Skilled Worker – Health and Care’ visa grants have increased over two and a half times (+157% or +74,096) to 121,290 compared with the previous year

The latest increase is in part due to the expansion in late 2021 for ‘Care Workers and Home Carers’ and ‘Senior Care Workers’. In the year ending June 2023, ‘Care Workers and Home Carers’ comprised around 50% of visas granted under the ‘Health and Care’ visa category.

Indian nationals were the highest nationality granted on both these route

 

Which is pretty much what I've been saying all along. The above partly caused by Brexit and partly by the failure of Govt. to ensure sufficient Education and Training of 'Home Grown' workers.  It's not good enough to try to push this issue into a siding by labelling it as 'other Fiscal Policy'. It's all part of the picture and I repeat, again, that it reveals a fundamental tension between the Tory obsession with cutting public spending and keeping wages and taxes down, as against the need to recruit qualified staff into all fields, but especially into Health and Social Care.

 

Don't forget that Govt. ACTIVELY promotes low pay for migrants, which will of course contribute to continuing low pay for Home Grown workers.

 

It goes further. Not only are their thinking and their policies chaotic, but they have admitted to allowing 'unregistered' 'Agencies', to recruit and to fraudulently obtain Work Visas, in many cases, either for unqualified people, or for matching up supposed 'dependents' to people to whom they are not related.  This whole scandal reminds me very much of similar scandals allowed by Tory failure to regulate Privatised versions of formerly Public Sector agencies. Too many in all areas to go into here.

 

Cleverly has come up with some changes, but it's obvious to me that they just shift part of the migration issue, back to the Workforce Education, Training and Recruitment issue.

They still won't address the fundamental problem.. because they are ideologically trapped.

[DJ360 6,730]

46 minutes ago, oldphil said:

I think that what the government hoped would happen was that the first few boatloads to be actually sent to Rwanda would signal real intent and deter the remainder from attempting a crossing.

 

That may be true, but it works on the assumption that the majority of arrivals have no asylum case.  If they believe they have a case, they will continue to come.

[Brew 5,420]

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Asylum system, which in itelf is notoriously slow.

 

Actually it stands comparison with other countries. the average time is between six months and a year with a success rate of 75% 

Those taking longer are probably the ones dumpimg their identification papers in the sea. 98% of the boat migrants have no means of proving who they are or where they come from.

Germany average 9 months, Austria and Belgium 18 months.

[DJ360 6,730]

Then everyone is too slow. 

If countries had a swift way of either accepting, or rejecting and removing applicants, maybe those who inhabit the shady middle ground would be less inclined to 'try it on'.

[Brew 5,420]

3 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Then everyone is too slow. 

If countries had a swift way of either accepting, or rejecting and removing applicants, maybe those who inhabit the shady middle ground would be less inclined to 'try it on'.

 

It's a gamble, those who will 'try it on' know that with a 75% success rate the odds are very much in their favour. There is also the fact a refusal does not preclude them making numerous follow up applications which. with the benefit of experience, increase their chances.

[Brew 5,420]

20 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Don't forget that Govt. ACTIVELY promotes low pay for migrants, which will of course contribute to continuing low pay for Home Grown workers.

Not sure how you make that out. everyone has the right to the legal minimum and we've just seen it announced skilled  migrant workers offered over £38,000

[Brew 5,420]

27 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

ou seem determined to ignore LEGAL migration, and its ramifications., especially with regard to Govt. policies on Employment and Training. So let's just set 'The Boats' aside for now and see what Cleverly and Co come up with.

Well illegal immigration and control of the boats was the topic to start with.

You seem to be determined to widen the subject to include unrelated polices that give you more scope to criticise the HMG.

By increasing the scope of the discussion we lose focus on the problem until we are bogged down in a paralysis of analysis.

[DJ360 6,730]

Quote

Not sure how you make that out. everyone has the right to the legal minimum and we've just seen it announced skilled  migrant workers offered over £38,000

 

Not quite true.

 

UK recruiters were allowed to offer migrants 20% below UK rates for specific jobs. not entirely sure how that worked, but a blessing for Private Care Home profitability

 

The £38000 figure is a MINIMUM salary for migrant recruits, designed, sort of, to reduce migrant recruitment by keeping it for higher skilled workers.  I don't think you'll find too many Care Assistants getting such a salary, so it's just a reversal of a failed policy but with nothing put in place of it.

 

The ONLY way to stop the requirement to recruit from abroad, is to Educate and Train at home.  Govt has failed to grasp that nettle..long term, so until they do the problems will continue.

 

Cleverly's latest U turns and sticking plasters are all rather neatly described here, but he, like the rest of his bunch still fail to see the Elephant in the Room.

 

https://www.itv.com/news/2023-12-04/cleverly-to-announce-tougher-foreign-workers-rules-after-migration-spike

 

[DJ360 6,730]

22 minutes ago, Brew said:

Well illegal immigration and control of the boats was the topic to start with.

You seem to be determined to widen the subject to include unrelated polices that give you more scope to criticise the HMG.

By increasing the scope of the discussion we lose focus on the problem until we are bogged down in a paralysis of analysis.

 

Hardly Jim..

The topic is 'Anything Political', and we have ranged across whole rafts of domestic and foreign politics. Agreed, 'The Boats' has featured strongly in recent posts, mostly since the Braverman Saga, but the latest public and Parliamentary debate is about both Boats/Rwanda AND the huge increase in LEGAL migration.

 

Rwanda and therefore The Boats, are basically stalled until Cleverly's efforts are worked through.

 

I see nothing wrong with looking at the causes of increased legal migration, especially as, from my perspective, they clearly indicate yet another failure of current Tory ideology.

[Brew 5,420]

4 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

UK recruiters were allowed to offer migrants 20% below UK rates

Were! not any more...

Raising the minimum does, in theory, reduce the flow of immigration but can also introduce a benefit. It removes the ability of those unscrupulous employers who hold down workers wages by using foreign labour as a way to keep wages down. 

[DJ360 6,730]

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Many Private Care Home companies have seen increased profits whilst continuing to suppress salaries:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jul/24/uk-private-care-providers-profit-rise-covid-report

[Brew 5,420]

2 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Hardly Jim..

The topic is 'Anything Political', and we have ranged across whole rafts of domestic and foreign politics. Agreed, 'The Boats' has featured strongly in recent posts, mostly since the Braverman Saga, but the latest public and Parliamentary debate is about both Boats/Rwanda AND the huge increase in LEGAL migration.

 

Fair point but it seems the more pressing area of interest is the current situation of illegals. 

 

7 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Well i did say can, not will and the subject of care homes and should they be left to the private sector, plus who pays is a can of worms...

[DJ360 6,730]

I'm not getting into detailed discussion here and I've stated frequently that I do not support Hamas, Hebollah, Palestinian Jihad or any other terrorist organisation and neither do I support attacks by Jewish Settlers in the West Bank, on innocent Palestinians.

 

However, I'd like to pose just one question:

 

1. When paramilitary organisations on both Unionist and Republican sides were effectively 'embedded' in Northern Ireland during the 'troubles', would anyone in the UK, or even the World have supported removing them by bombing Belfast, Derry etc.. to rubble, regardless of 'collateral' casualties?

 

 

 

 

[benjamin1945 16,160]

I can't believe that in this year of 2023...that supposedly civilised countries accept what Israel are doing to the poor children in 'Gaza' and the west bank....its unbelievable that the '''Palestinians''' after over 70 years still have very few rights....

            Yes 'Hamas' are truly a sick terrorist organisation that need wiping off the face of the Earth......but the 'Israelis'' are killing Hundreds every day...and think its moral to kill innocent People.......In my opinion a ''Two State'' solution is the only answer........

[Brew 5,420]

There has never in history been a war where innocents did not bear the brunt. In WW2 the number of non-combatants was almost twice the number of military losses. Did the the bombs not kill innocents in London, Coventry, Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima the list goes sickeningly on and on, always has, always will.

 

I mostly hear pity the poor children of Gaza, why just in Gaza? were there no Jewish innocents killed? why no pity for the children of Ukraine?  Why no pity for hostages on both sides snatched to be used like pawns in some sort of sick game?  Why no peace marches for the Balkans?

There are I suspect powerful influences at work to shape public opinion.

 

Many of the critics pointing fingers at Israel in criticism I see as covert antisemitism.  None have  made any suggestion that will resolve the situation. 

 

The calls for a ceasefire imply it is incumbent on Israel to lead yet all evidence I've seen point to to the extremists within Hamas breaking the recent agreement yet again with rocket fire. 

 

When the ceasefire was in place I'm quite sure each did exactly the same as the various factions in Northern Ireland did, use the time to regroup and rearmed before starting again.

 

When in the 80's there was a period of peace/ceasefire, some West Bank settlements were demolished as a gesture, Palestine seemed to take it a a sign of weakness and the rockets - started again...

 

Israel has spent billions on the Iron Dome, a defence weapon against rockets, note the word defence it is not a weapon of aggression. They could have spent it on far more destructive ordnance.

 

Col was critical of Jewish lack of security as though it was some sort  of invitation ,to my mind it clearly demonstrated they were far from prepared and quite relaxed, something that only occurs when you are at peace like 9/11, 11/11 and the Grand Hotel

 

Hamas. Hezbollah, Fatah and the PIJ are not some ragtag group. They are well armed, well trained, well funded and numbering in the thousands. They're led by warmongers with no interest in a peaceful settlement that does include genocide for Israel.

 

Does Palestine have a legitimate claim? of course they do but so do their neighbours.

 

Ben, where did you read that Israel think it's 'moral' to kill innocents? and which countries have accepted it as OK?

 

Israel and Palestine were created at the same time 77years ago, but the Jews have had to endure 2000 years of a diaspora and antisemitism around the world. 

A 'two state'  solution and others like it were mooted way back in 1916, 1917, 1919 and 23... Guess who agreed and who refused to play nice...

 

Israel wants to wipe out Hamas. Hamas has sworn to wipe out Israel. Neither will succeed and so the sick show goes on... 

[trogg 2,016]

46 minutes ago, Brew said:

sick show goes on... 

Yes it does go on, all around the world , but as individuals we cannot do much about it , but it does not stop our feelings that it is wrong and feel the sadness of it all. The killings and atrocities happening all over by all parties are wrong and I feel for all parties suffering from them.

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

The whole problem of the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves whilst wiser people are full of doubts.  Bertrand Russell.  Makes you think.

 

War does not determine who is right, only who is left.  Also Bertrand Russell. Also makes you think.

 

Why do we have millions of people whose only desire appears to be killing each other and only one Bertrand Russell?  

[benjamin1945 16,160]

Brew the point i was trying to make (but not very well).....is why the civilised world (so called) doesnt band together..IE thru the UN  and just use its military power to halt all these exstreamist.....

                     I'm not against Jews i'm in favour  of freedom for all..........I must admit i am a News fanatic......and my favourite news channel is ''Aljazeera'' which to me is the most honest............its almost 24 hour coverage of the Israel/Gaza situation...and although it greatly upsets me it does show quite Graphically the plight of the children......and i dont see how anyone can fail to be moved.......

[letsavagoo 963]

3 hours ago, benjamin1945 said:

and just use its military power to halt all these exstreamist

Isn’t that what Israel are doing. Would UN involvement be different. How would they go about it. Sadly easier said than done.

 

[Brew 5,420]

3 hours ago, benjamin1945 said:

is why the civilised world (so called) doesnt band together.

 

Sadly Ben we live in a world that is becoming more and more polarised, left and  right, have and have nots, the pull up the ladder I'm all right jacks.

The UN's effectiveness as a peacekeeper is in reality quite limited though it's quite good at passing resolutions.

 

I make use of Aljazeera reports, the BBC, the press etc, even the Morning Star to try and gather a balanced view. 

Aljazeera 24 hr coverage of Gaza - how many on Ukraine? - There are no unbiased outlets, the truth usually lies somewhere between the lines

 

We look and must judge for ourselves that which aligns with our own particular beliefs and persuasions to decide what to accept as true and what is designed to manipulate our opinions.

[Cliff Ton 10,468]

Local politician makes national headlines.

 

Robert Jenrick, Conservative MP for Newark, has resigned from the Government over the Rwandan situation.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67640833

[philmayfield 6,141]

He's my MP for Newark and Sherwood. Never much liked the chap but I disliked the opposition even more. The best MP we've had in my time was Ted Bishop (Labour).  He was a 'proper' constituency MP regardless of politics. At least he's had a pub named after him!

[DJ360 6,730]

Jenrick is a snake. He should have been put in gaol years ago when he misused his position allow a planning proposal in London which saved the developer.. one of his pals. £ millions and at the same time cost a cash strapped London Borough £ millions. And I reckon he would have been had Johnson not used his 'this matter is now closed' dismissal.

Then he moaned that murals at a hostel for immigrant CHILDREN were 'too welcoming'.

There's other stuff too.  He's clearly lining himself up to join the Tory Right in their coming attempt to unseat Sunak.

[philmayfield 6,141]

For once, and only this once, I can agree with you!