Anything Political

[Brew 5,502]

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Well Farage definitely claimed to have single handedly done more to defeat the Far Right than anyone else, and claimed to have wiped out the BNP.

 

I was aware of that and whilst it's a stretch the BNP have mostly disappeared. Here's why Farage thinks he did it.

 

Quote: WiKi - 

A HOPE not hate report in 2015 argued that the decline of the BNP, EDL, and others was caused due to schisms within the party, combined with a rise in the right-wing populist UKIP. Many BNP and the rest defected to UKIP.

 

The National Front (re; your poster), are not the BNP, though similar in ideology the BNP is quite separate.

The poster is hugely out of date but both major parties still have similar aims to those on the poster.

Both want to stop illegal immigration, both want to increase military strength, agreement with the EU is not yet finished. Making Britain Great again is an old saw used by most parties. Overseas aid is under review and the Tories want a return to national service as per the BNP. The only odd one out is capital punishment and I wouldn't bet against it if it came to a referendum.

 

The Looney Tune candidates:

 

Most have not said anything wrong or illegal. Like all good theories there is an element of truth and a lot of exaggeration.

Some are thoroughly unpleasant in some cases and guesswork in at least one. Some sail close to the wind however they are, and should be, allowed to forward their point of view.

Disparaging the candidates and their rambling is simply par for the course in today's hustings.

Those who don't like it, tough, that's how freedom of speech works - until it doesn't, and we start locking people up.

 

 

[Brew 5,502]

25 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Which socio economic group, which 'leaning', left or right, is more likely to spoil its vote? What effect does that have?

 

Not sure of your point, if we are supposed to have a secret ballot how will we know?

 

And in other news something to cheer you up.

Reuters reporting on a visit to the West Midlands by Sunak infers he has accepted the loss. 

Summary:

Sunak to issue new appeal to stop Reform UK

Says Britain needs strong Conservative opposition

Reform unlikely to win many parliamentary seats

Britain expected to elect centre-left government on Thursday

 

You're welcome...

 

[DJ360 6,776]

1 hour ago, Brew said:

Not sure of your point, if we are supposed to have a secret ballot how will we know?

 

That is the point.  We waste a vote for no verifiable outcome.  Yes, all parties might notice an increase in spoiled ballot papers, pointing to more dissatisfaction with politics and politicians but as I say.. they already know that.

 

1 hour ago, Brew said:

And in other news something to cheer you up.

 

Thanks, but I didn't need cheering up. The Tories are toast.  That.. is a start...

 

(Sunak)Says Britain needs strong Conservative opposition

 

Oddly, I don't recall the Tories complaining about their very substantial majority when Johnson lied his way in.

[DJ360 6,776]

And as if by magic.. Jonathan Pie has released Election Special No. 4.  The Conservatives.

 

 

Usual warning for the profanity sensitive and he does excel himself here with just one word, but he's on cracking form in his absolutely barnstorming destruction of their 'record'.

 

 

[DJ360 6,776]

1 hour ago, Brew said:

Those who don't like it, tough, that's how freedom of speech works - until it doesn't, and we start locking people up.

 

Three guesses which of Reform, Conservative, or Labour would be most likely to start locking people up for their political views...

[DJ360 6,776]

2 hours ago, Brew said:

Quote: WiKi - 

A HOPE not hate report in 2015 argued that the decline of the BNP, EDL, and others was caused due to schisms within the party, combined with a rise in the right-wing populist UKIP. Many BNP and the rest defected to UKIP.

Which is what I said in the first place.  He didn't defeat them..he invited them in.

And next up you'll see the Right of the Tories trying to form an alliance with Reform.

If you can't beat them....

[Brew 5,502]

7 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Three guesses which of Reform, Conservative, or Labour would be most likely to start locking people up for their political views...

I don't know Col but as someone who recently recommended doing just that perhaps you could offer some advice?

[DJ360 6,776]

I said Farage should be locked up for his utterances, because the ones I heard were clearly racist and borderline hate speech.

He's modified his language a lot.  He's stirred up the s*** and is now desperately trying to stop any of it sticking to him.

[Brew 5,502]

6 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Which is what I said in the first place. 

I didn't agree with him, simply gave some background as to how he came to think so.

I don't know but if he considers UKIP subsumed the BNP to a point where they had no viable membership, maybe he convinced himself he had beaten them... 

[Brew 5,502]

3 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

said Farage should be locked up for his utterances, because the ones I heard were clearly racist and borderline hate speech.

 

To answer your question then my guess is it would be the hard left. 

[Oztalgian 3,415]

4 hours ago, Jill Sparrow said:

I spoilt my ballot paper by writing my honest opinion across it.  I suspect many others will do likewise.

 

4 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Did you advise them on how they might get your vote in future?  Or did you just tell them you think they're 'all as bad'?

 

Eitherway, your ballot will just increase the number of 'spoiled' ballots recorded, but all that parties, if they care, might register, is some sort of generalised dissatisfaction with politics. They know that already.

I have long advocated that there should be a formal way, on the ballot paper, of registering your disapproval of the candidates being offered for your vote.

I have thought of changing my name to "None Of Them" and standing for parliament. I wonder how I would go, especially in a contentious seat.

[Brew 5,502]

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

I said Farage should be locked up for his utterances, because the ones I heard were clearly racist 

 I can't find any...  

[mary1947 2,112]

It is now only 2 days away to our General Election.  We have had about 30 leaflets come to us via Royal Mail. we have had a phone call asking us if we have ID and would we like to have a lift to the Polling Station, yes please. Now have any of the canditdates shown there face's    

                       NO!!!!!!!!!!

[Beekay 5,291]

We voted over a week ago. We've been having a postal vote for years. Can't remember how that came about.

[Brew 5,502]

I wonder what excuses Sunak will come up with on Friday and how long before there is a new leader/s?

[DJ360 6,776]

 

I note that another Reform candidate has decided to 'defect' to the Tories.  Apparently, she has discovered that although Farage and Tice aren't,  all other Reform candidates are racist, misogynistic, etc. No s*** Sherlock!

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/reform-candidate-quits-claiming-vast-33149900

 

Quote

 

Georgie David, Reform's candidate in West Ham and Beckton, announced her defection in in a statement issued by the Conservative Party. It comes just two days after Liam Booth-Isherwood, who is standing in Erewash, also defected to the Tories, blaming "reports of widespread racism and sexism" among Reform candidates.

Ms David said: "I am hereby announcing my decision to leave the Reform Party and stand down as their candidate for West Ham and Beckton, with immediate effect. I am in no doubt that the party and its senior leadership are not racist. However, as the vast majority of candidates are indeed racist, misogynistic, and bigoted, I do not wish to be directly associated with people who hold such views that are so vastly opposing to my own and what I stand for."

She added: "I also have been significantly frustrated and dismayed by the failure of the Reform Party's leadership to tackle this issue in any meaningful way, and their attempts to instead try to brush it under the carpet or cry foul play. As such, I have now suspended my campaign with Reform, and I an endorsing the Conservative Party - I would encourage all of my fellow patriots to do the same."

 

 

All very noble of her.. but would you give your vote to someone who has taken until two days before the election to figure that out?

What was she thinking?

Was she thinking?

[DJ360 6,776]

14 hours ago, Brew said:

 I can't find any...  

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farages-most-controversial-moments-ukip-brexit-b1122381.html

 

 

And the one where he claimed that there are whole streets in Oldham, where nobody speaks English.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/street-cleaner-challenges-farage-over-streets-where-nobody-speaks-english-comments/ar-BB1oakQF

 

 

He's a racist.

[Brew 5,502]

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

He's a racist.

Oh dear, you obviously went to a lot of trouble to find those and they don't actually prove anything.

Even the desperate muck raking in the link has to go back to his school days to find anything they consider even slightly untoward. Today it would be controversial, not illegal, but back then it was little more than a kid pushing boundaries.  I'm eternally grateful no one recorded me in the playground.

The is a lot of innuendo of what they 'think' he said or what they 'think he meant. but scant regard to his actual words.  

 

His most provocative statements as reported by the Standard:

 

"He feels uncomfortable surrounded by those not speaking English on the tube".

Many do and I can't see how that is racist.

 

"Whilst still at school he and his friends allegedly sang Hitler youth songs":

The Standard of course assumed an allegation is proof positive and ignored the fact Farge denied it as 'baloney'. The headmaster and the deputy headmaster reportedly rejected the claims about extreme views. The latter said Farage enjoyed provoking left-wing teachers whom he thought had no sense of humour.

 

He admired Powell's principles:

He won't get very far with that now but back then it was a different world.

 

He forwent  University to make a lot of money:

As if that's a bad thing!. Good for him, though he wasn't as good at it as Starmer who is reported to have over 7 million against Farage having less than 1 and Coutts bank wanting to kick him out as not being rich enough.

 

He has spoken of a 'new world order' hinting that the likes of Soros and Goldman are somehow scheming for world domination:

I put that in the same box as Cols 'dark forces'.

 

The Oldham comment about the whole street was an exaggeration, and an observation that a majority of people don't speak English is just that, an observation. The complainant on the radio show could only claim it was "not the whole street".

 

Are we not allowed to make such comments?

 

Am I a racist if I point out the fact London's population is only 36.8% white British?

 

Tell me Starmer's 6500 new teachers will not turn out to be an exaggeration if not a downright lie.

Failing miserably to prove racism the article then moves to his acolytes and even starts to castigate Trump hoping the dislike for one rubs off on the other.

 

Basically the whole article is just nitpicking and obviously well aware of the libel laws.

 

There is NO proof of racism just a cobbled-up litany of conjecture and misinterpretation designed to catch eye of those in fear of Farage and desperately looking for anything to belittle him.

 

No one is taking his policies or costings apart though most seem ill formed, all they are doing so far is attacking on a personal level. At school it was always taught that swearing and name calling means you're losing the argument.

 

I feel i should point out I do not support him nor most of his policies but as the Aussies would have it he should be allowed to have a 'fair go' without the character assassination.

 

 

 

[LizzieM 9,542]

On Thursday we’re going to drive 200 miles to vote even though our 2 votes won’t make a blind bit of difference to the result of the Nottingham East constituency election, sadly.   Just like our votes have never made a difference to the outcome of the Nottingham City Council elections but we stick to our convictions, because we can.  We’ve never had the need to arrange a postal or proxy vote (until this time, when we didn’t realise we’d be away from home til it was too late) and we actually quite enjoy walking to the Polling Station and doing our bit.  In May 1979 I walked to our local polling station in Bedfordshire, pushing my toddler in a McLaren buggy, cast my vote and 2 days later gave birth to our second son.   Anyway, we’ll be at the Polling Station in Nottingham East before 10pm on Thursday and hope that woman who’s never achieved anything in her young life to qualify as an MP (again) doesn’t get elected. 

[Oztalgian 3,415]

1 hour ago, LizzieM said:

On Thursday we’re going to drive 200 miles to vote 

If you are away from home in OZ on election day there are arrangements for you to lodge an absentee vote.

If you are interstate there is a voting centre in every state capital city and they even have one in the UK.

We have only 18 million enrolled to vote whereas the UK has 46.5 million so I can see the logistics are quite different.

At our last Federal Election over 50% of people either voted early of had a postal vote. It seems that in the later days of the campaign pollies were only talking to half of the voters as the rest had voted and were no longer interested.

[Brew 5,502]

37 minutes ago, Oztalgian said:

We have only 18 million enrolled to vote whereas the UK has 46.5 million so I can see the logistics are quite different.

A lot!. Australia has 3 people per km2 so postal or proxy voting will be more popular. The UK has 275 persons per km2 but here we have 40,000 polling stations in an area only 1/32 of Aus, even one in the back of a car! I imagine it's far easier to vote in person here than it is down under.

[Oztalgian 3,415]

8 hours ago, Brew said:

Australia has 3 people per km2

If you take the total land area of Australia that is generally correct but we are not equally distributed across the land mass. 85% of us live near the cost and there is hardly anyone in the vast empty centre. 90% of us live in the cities.

The population density across London is 5,640 per sq km with a peak of 16,478 in Tower Hamlets. Inner city Melbourne has a population density of 22,400 per sq km. Potts Point and Pyrmont in inner Sydney have densities of 16,700 and 16,500 respectively. For a Federal election we have 150 electorates and over 7,000 polling places, there are 600 early polling stations. Mobile polling covers 3.4 million square kilometres. Our largest electorate is Durack in WA which is bigger than France, Spain, Germany, Portugal and Belgium combined.

It is only difficult to vote in person if you live on one of the outback cattle stations or in a very remote aboriginal community.

You did not answer my original question, can you lodge an absentee vote in the UK election?

[Brew 5,502]

 

12 hours ago, Oztalgian said:

If you are away from home in OZ on election day there are arrangements for you to lodge an absentee vote.

If you are interstate there is a voting centre in every state capital city and they even have one in the UK.

We have only 18 million enrolled to vote whereas the UK has 46.5 million so I can see the logistics are quite different.

At our last Federal Election over 50% of people either voted early of had a postal vote. It seems that in the later days of the campaign pollies were only talking to half of the voters as the rest had voted and were no longer interested.

 

2 hours ago, Oztalgian said:

You did not answer my original question, can you lodge an absentee vote in the UK election?

 

Oz that's not what you asked, in fact there is no question at all in your first post (as quoted), however the answer to your subsequent post is yes. The details are here:

 

Electoral registration and absent vote applications | Electoral Commission

[DJ360 6,776]

18 hours ago, Brew said:

Oh dear, you obviously went to a lot of trouble to find those

 

No.  Took less than five minutes... and there's plenty more out there.

 

18 hours ago, Brew said:

they don't actually prove anything.

 

That might be true, in an absolute legal sense,  but there comes a point where it's necessary to invoke the 'Duck Test': 'If it walks like a Duck, and quacks like a Duck..'

 

And although they were forced to back track  because they couldn't actually prove anything, Coutt's Bank wanted

 to dump Farage because of what it called 'Reputational Damage'. (a.k.a. 'Guilt by Association')  I don't blame them, I wouldn't want my reputation damaged by association with the man. They concluded, among other things:

 

Quote

 

 "It's clear to me that NF has - and projects - xenophobic, chauvinistic and racist views, even though this is done within the law, or framed with sufficient ambiguity to claim malicious misquoting by his critics.

"At best he is seen as xenophobic and pandering to racists, and at worst, he is seen as xenophobic and racist."

 

 

18 hours ago, Brew said:

His most provocative statements as reported by the Standard:

 

There is so much more in that Standard article that you have ignored, that it's not really worth me indulging in a blow by blow rebuttal. I'd just encourage interested parties to follow the link and read the full article:

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farages-most-controversial-moments-ukip-brexit-b1122381.html

 

 

18 hours ago, Brew said:

He admired Powell's principles:

 

Powell's 'principles' were overtly Racist. Their chronology doesn't change that.

 

18 hours ago, Brew said:

He has spoken of a 'new world order' hinting that the likes of Soros and Goldman are somehow scheming for world domination:

I put that in the same box as Cols 'dark forces'.

 

He clearly picks up on, and endorses the Right Wing attempts to disparage Soros. Soros is an exceptionally clever investor, but also very pro-Democracy and anti the sort of ambitions harboured and pursued by the likes of US Republicans, Putin and many others. Soros has been very active in trying to promote and defend Democracy, in former Soviet states in particular, and in that he 'puts his money where his mouth is.'

Of course Farage's babblings round Soros not only seek to promote Farage's own extreme Neoliberalism (a.k.a. 'Market Fundamentalism') v Soros' 'Reflexivity' theory,  but also very conveniently play into conspiracy theories surrounding a supposed Jewish Plot for World Domination. And so, once again, Farage attaches himself, however subtly, to another favourite Far Right Meme, a.k.a. Anti Semitism. One of many brands of 'Dog Whistle' employed by Farage.

 

I've not seen Farage's approach better defined than by Bertrand Russell:

 

Quote

 

The first step in a fascist movement is the combination under an energetic leader of a number of men who possess more than the average share of leisure, brutality, and stupidity. The next step is to fascinate fools and muzzle the intelligent, by emotional excitement on the one hand and terrorism on the other.

Bertrand Russell: Freedom, edited by Ruth Nanda Anshen, Harcourt Brace, 1940.

 

The above now often reduced to 'Fascinate fools and Muzzle the Intelligent.'

 

Clearly Farage hasn't got as far as 'terrorism' and I doubt he ever will.. but he's certainly well along the road of 'Fascinating Fools'. If he ever did achieve power.. 'Your heard it first here folks!'

 

As for 'Col's Dark Forces'.  No mystery there and any amount of evidence. I've pointed to Tufton St and the IEA, many times. Collusion between Steve Bannon , Far Right US agitator, misinformer, Social Media Manipulator and multiple times convicted criminal.. and UK politicals, including Ukip/Farage. And Bannon himself is  a well documented 'Fascinator of Fools' on many levels. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Bannon

 

(  All associated with Trump, Farage,, Right Wing movements and Neolib/Free Market/Anti 'state' movements world wide. That's your real 'plot for World Domination' and in terms of the near universal adoption of Neolib ideas as 'Economic Orthodoxy', they're winning. We should ALL be concerned.)

 

18 hours ago, Brew said:

The Oldham comment about the whole street was an exaggeration, and an observation that a majority of people don't speak English is just that, an observation.

 

Of course if you want to quote the bare words and remove any hint of context,  connotations, purpose, etc... you are correct.  But surely you have figured Farage out by now?  He's a master of innuendo, half truth etc.. and a 'Grade 8' Orchestral Standard player of the 'Dog Whistle'.

 

18 hours ago, Brew said:

Am I a racist if I point out the fact London's population is only 36.8% white British?

 

Clearly not.. though context is important.  That's also hardly a uniquely UK phenomenon.  capital Cities around the world have similarly diverse populations.  However if you were to say.. 'It's hard to find a white face in London', or similar, then that would clearly be racist.

The bottom line here is that Farage's statement about the (mythical?) street in question was clearly not supported by the evidence, but it didn't need to be. It was designed to 'trigger' his 'fascinated fools', and it probably worked.

 

18 hours ago, Brew said:

Tell me Starmer's 6500 new teachers will not turn out to be an exaggeration if not a downright lie

 

Irrelevant, and a 'false equivalence'. Starmer's manifesto promise does not in any way even hint at issues of race, language, or the implied links to immigration. Whether it's a lie, exaggeration or whatever, makes no difference to the analysis of Farage.

 

18 hours ago, Brew said:

Basically the whole article is just nitpicking and obviously well aware of the libel laws.

 

There is NO proof of racism just a cobbled-up litany of conjecture and misinterpretation designed to catch eye of those in fear of Farage and desperately looking for anything to belittle him.

 

It highlights a constant feature of Farage's campaigning style, as I've highlighted above. It links his ideology to that of similar, or even identical ideologies expressed by some very unsavoury characters including Trump, Bannon and Putin, all of whom Farage has aligned with and 'admired' at some point.

 

18 hours ago, Brew said:

No one is taking his policies or costings apart though most seem ill formed,

 

Nic Robinson did, on the BBC... very effectively.  I do too, though I'd agree that Farage's deliberately controversial style does invite the sort of criticism which predominates and that is partly his purpose.  He wants to get support,( by fascinating fools), in order to implement his economic policies..which as I repeatedly say, are neoliberal/far right in ways which would make the Tories, Truss, etc.. etc.. look positively benign.  He has admitted all of this on National TV, but as I say..very few are listening.

 

18 hours ago, Brew said:

I feel i should point out I do not support him nor most of his policies but as the Aussies would have it he should be allowed to have a 'fair go' without the character assassination.

 

I'm firmly of the opinion that he has been offered very much more than a 'fair go', especially in the early days of Ukip, when his deliberate 'nuisance' tactics won him far more publicity and air time than his support warranted.

We are now seeing the result of that 'fair go'.

All above said.. I'm fairly sure we've seen 'peak Reform', certainly in polling terms..and Farage is keeping a low profile re: National TV as he knows he's been 'sussed' by many.  OTOH, I'm also convinced that a lot of Reform voters wouldn't openly declare their intentions to Pollsters, because they are aware that identifies them as supporters of a fundamentally racist, misogynistic, bigoted far right agenda.

 

 

[DJ360 6,776]

14 hours ago, LizzieM said:

we stick to our convictions, because we can.

 

I rather hope we all do Lizzie, but there are those engaged actively in UK politics who would very much like to deny us that right.