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Sorry TBI. I really don’t understand why the system was junked - unless it was to bring “ equality”, meaning mediocrity, to every kid. We are NOT equally academically gifted, and thank God. I went to

I think the difference between Grammar and secondary education was vast,,, Qualifications GCEs etc were hardly in our vocabulary at Padstow............i soon realised after a visit from the ''Youth Em

Never intended.........Digging owt,,Mending owt,,Making owt,,Screwing owt,, or anything Physical really,,      So along with having no Educational Qualifications things didn't look too promising......

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1 hour ago, philmayfield said:

Yes, but as I said most of us were from working class backgrounds at Mellish back in the 50’s. The only difference was that we passed our eleven plus. It has to be accepted that people are born with (have inherited) different levels of intelligence. 

Yes, the difference was probably the 11th plus. But what nurturing/educational development did you have prior to that, say from starting school aged five, the crucial time in a child's development. What was your home environment like, how much time did your parents spend with you? We were all 'working class' at Trent Bridge but there was a big variance in individual kids.

 

As for the 11th plus, as I said probably because I know for a fact I never took it, so how did I end up at a Grammar school?

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37 minutes ago, TBI said:

As for the 11th plus, as I said probably because I know for a fact I never took it, so how did I end up at a Grammar school?

There was also a 13 plus for those who showed aptitude and had either failed or never sat their 11 plus.

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2 hours ago, benjamin1945 said:

Eleven plus.........one of my biggest regrets.......never took it..........might not have Passed but should have took it..........

My father, who was living in the Meadows before the war,  could have gone to Mundella but his parents couldn’t afford the uniform so he went to Trent Bridge School. He still made it in the end though!

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Found out about 13 plus when was 15...................

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1 hour ago, TBI said:

Yes, the difference was probably the 11th plus. But what nurturing/educational development did you have prior to that, say from starting school aged five, the crucial time in a child's development. What was your home environment like, how much time did your parents spend with you? We were all 'working class' at Trent Bridge but there was a big variance in individual kids.

 

As for the 11th plus, as I said probably because I know for a fact I never took it, so how did I end up at a Grammar school?

My parents bought me a very large ‘Children’s Encyclopaedia’. I read it from cover to cover many times. My final report from primary school said ‘Philip has an enormous fund of general knowledge’. Not needed now - I just look it up on the internet. We can all be experts now.:biggrin:

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I remember taking, both the 11 and  13+.  If I remember rightly they were in two parts.  An intelligence test followed by part two, math, English  etc.  I was told both times that I passed the first part but not the second.

As far as what I was taught in school.  What I learned seemed pointless at times, but it sowed seeds that I followed up later with interest.  A good knowledge of history is essential or we are destined to repeat it.  Sometimes it seems we do anyway

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Comes back to that inequality again. Even being in the top 20% who passed the 11+, a couple of examples of lost opportunity, just because parents were too poor to afford the uniform. You can understand why the system was junked.

 

PS Jill, I'd never heard of the 13+.

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I don't disagree with you TBI, but I have often wondered.  Has the comprehensive system really done any better?

I haven't lived in the UK for a long time now, but it seems as though school systems everywhere are being dummed down for a type of uniformity and political correctness,  which does not bring out the best in the kids.  A person should not be denied entry because his folks can't afford the uniform.

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Then of course there's those wasters who marry for money, plus those who undeservedly inherit it ! 

Most of us could say that life wasn't fair in one way or another, but the majority of us just get on with life. 

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In todays world we are almost overwhelmed by exams and qualifications, many of which are of questionable use or purpose. Common sense, that rarest  of qualities, is still at a premium.

Many years back my late father stated that University Degrees were becoming like arses in that virtually everyone seemed to have one, and the situation is now far worse than then.

My father and mother were without formal qualifications, although as an eleven year old my father had won a free scholarship to a minor Public School. Unfortunately, as a poor kid, surrounded by the privileged offspring of professionals, his life was made a misery, which resulted in him leaving to commence work at age thirteen. 

During my own career I have regularly been amazed by the lack of brain power and nous shown by many highly qualified professionals of all disciplines. "I throw up my hands in total despair" became my comment of choice.

So irrelevant of what exams and tests you may or may not have passed, remember that if Jamie Oliver and Richard Branson can become multi millionaires there is hope for everyone to succeed.

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PWhen i started work at 15 with no qualifications i decided i was going to get on despite this, 

I worked hard with dedication and it was recognised,, with regular promotions,, good manners and pride didn't do any harm either,,

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Well with all my qualifications and industrial expertise I’ve  just spent the morning unblocking 120 yards of drain, having to lift up five drain covers and shove the rods down. What a satisfying gurgle it makes as you get to the outlet nearest the lane and it all lets go! I’ve always prided myself in being hands on but at 76, with an arthritic hip, it’s not what you want on a wet day. I am insured for such eventualities but when it’s backed right up to the house and you can get a whiff of it indoors there’s no time to wait around for the workmen to arrive. I did have some specialists round some years ago but having failed to unblock with their hi tech kit they asked to borrow my drain rods!:biggrin:

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In my last 3 or 4 years working part time up to recent health problem and aged 73,, i watched many younger (not all) colleagues looking for ways to skive and cheat while at work,, 

     Told em what i thought to their face,,but still maintained a good working relationship with em,,certainly wouldn't dream of ratting them up,,like to think i gave them words of wisdom,, think they took notice,,

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5 hours ago, TBI said:

Comes back to that inequality again. Even being in the top 20% who passed the 11+, a couple of examples of lost opportunity, just because parents were too poor to afford the uniform. You can understand why the system was junked.

 

PS Jill, I'd never heard of the 13+.

 

Sorry TBI. I really don’t understand why the system was junked - unless it was to bring “ equality”, meaning mediocrity, to every kid. We are NOT equally academically gifted, and thank God. I went to a grammar school and never looked down on my mates who were learning a trade at secondary mod. In fact, I often wish that I’d learnt one. 

 

I came from a single-parent family. We were poor, and my mum had to accept charity in the form of vouchers to buy my school uniform. She saved to buy me a good fountain pen, and a Bible for Religious Studies. That 11+ gave me equality, academically, with other, better off kids.

 

I can NEVER understand folks that believe grammars promote inequality.

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That 11+ gave me equality, academically, with other, better off kids.

 

Certainly it did, good for you. What about the 80% or so that didn't get that opportunity? What equality did they receive?

 

I can NEVER understand folks that believe grammars promote inequality.

 

I don't know why you can't, it's not difficult. It's numbers game, simple and rational.

 

What I struggle to understand is some of those on here who had the privilege of going to a Grammar School yet whinge constantly about how much they hated it. What an absolute waste of an opportunity that could have gone to a child who would have appreciated it.

 

 

 

 

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I've winged about it previously, but it did give me other facets of life other than academic, which I find an immense advantage, such as work ethics, loyalty, good manners, good general knowledge, generosity, kindness, but also stoicism, self belief, and an ability never to give in.

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Certainly FLY, but did you need a Grammar School place for those facets, could you ( or anyone else ) have got the same grounding for future life in a different type of school. As other have said, Grammars were there purely for promoting academic success for the brightest. As you and others have said, and rightly so, life is about making the most of things irrespective of education. I agree with that but that's not the point.

 

It was never a level playing field. If there are 100% of children and 20% go to a Grammar, that leaves 80%. Are they all of the same level of intelligence, of course not. If for example, the lowest 50%, and that's a lot, were more fitted to senior or comprehensive schools, what about the other 30% in the middle. Nearly a third of children got lumped in with the lowest. That's got to be unfair and unequal.  

 

I was Grammar educated, have a degree, was lucky and worked very hard throughout my career to achieve success. I could be forgiven for promoting the Grammar ethos, look at me. One thing I've always done though, is look out for the underdog.  It wasn't a fair system and let far too many down who could have achieved much more.

 

I'm not trying to get on my soapbox or be provocative and I've said my bit on the subject. That's my tuppence.  

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Well I got other abilities from my parents who ran their own business that they built up from scratch. 

If everyone got off their backsides, and not let others wet nurse them, strive for perfection, aimed for a better lifestyle, took some responsibility, then there'd be no underdogs. I'm sick to the back teeth of reading idealistic claptrap. It's a big rough world out there, and the sooner some realise that, the better. 

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