Anything Political

[Brew 5,420]

Echoes of a witch-hunt,  payback and back-biting. Johnson may well be all he is accused of but he and his team were facing an event unprecedented in modern times.

There is no doubt mistakes were made, but was he incompetent? That's a matter of opinion. Some scream we should have locked down sooner, others that it's all nonsense and the precautions were over the top and not necessary. To those to left and who love to vilify any who's opinion differs from theirs,  he's the devil incarnate.

 

If the hand written notes taken by Shafi and  offered in evidence that are attributed to Johnson were accurate, Why is there an  underline i.e. new subject or new topic, and  why did he not annotate it with 'PM' as he did when recording Johnson's three point plan? To my mind the notes indicate a general discussion and not something attributed to anyone in particular. But let's not spoil a good headline eh?

 

 

According to the Guardian at the time it was Cummings, not Johnson who argued against strict measures and said "if that means some pensioners die, too bad", though they were friends at the time so No10 denied it.

 

It's a pity all these experts, with knowledge gained from hindsight, and now leading a crusade of retribution were not more vocal at the time.

 

The fact is we were far from the worst in global terms, and in some aspects a world leader.

Frankly the millions spent on this enquiry, like so many before will at the end of day, make bugger all difference.

But we need a scapegoat to satisfy the self-righteous, and a buffoon like Boris fits the bill nicely.

 

Will we be better prepared for the next pandemic?  No.

[Stuart.C 491]

As Brew plus,,

 

WHEN the next Pandemic / Natural or Unnatural disaster hits, I will expect all the "Experts",  Critics and others who claim decisions were made too late / too early, too much money was spent on the wrong things etc,  to be the first to hold their hand up and volunteer to get us through without a life lost or a pound spent in the wrong place.

They will find what an impossible job is is to manage such an event without criticism, even with them even having the benefit of "mistakes" made with the Covid response.

 

What the future Pandemic etc managers will have, is generally a less compliant population as some of the current, more likely to be compliant older generation will have gone, to be replaced with the current and future younger generation some of whom seem very non compliant.

 

Even if we spent Trillions on being prepared and billions maintaining, testing and updating that preparedness, it's quite likely a good proportion will have been spent in the wrong areas.

[Rob.L 1,090]

I’d hardly describe the (then) prime minister as a scapegoat. He was elected to the highest political position and to be in charge of government policy, expected to make the correct decisions affecting the country, and be accountable for those decisions. He had access to every expert opinion available, some of which he apparently chose to ignore where it didn’t suit his views. 

 

He wasn’t nicknamed the shopping trolley by those who knew him well for no reason.

[Brew 5,420]

2 minutes ago, Rob.L said:

He was elected to the highest political position and to be in charge of government policy, expected to make the correct decisions affecting the country, and be accountable for those decisions. He had access to every expert opinion available, some of which he apparently chose to ignore where it didn’t suit his views. 

 

And  so he was, but in the aftermath  it's easy to say he was wrong. And the expert opinions you mention were not all singing from the same hymn sheet.

Cummings thought it all unnecessary, though he denies advocating herd immunity.

Chris Whitty, the Chief Scientific Officer has given evidence that the scientific advisers would not have even thought of or given  consideration to a national lockdown.

The World Health Organisation stated national lockdowns should be the "very.very last resort"

 

It was a government decision i.e. Johnson and his cohorts who disagreed. Which I interpret as saying had the government not ordered a lock down it would never have happened. So yes, he chose to ignore some fairly high power advice. Was he right to do so? You tell me...

 

Shoppinig trolley PM? who came up with that? Hmm lemme guess, It wasn't an egotistical non-elected adviser who went too far and got himself sacked was it by any chance? A throw away sound bite from an apparently  bitter man.

 

 

[MRS B 522]

Personally I would believe Jonathan Van Tam and Chris Whitty any day above Boris and Hancock.

[Brew 5,420]

Neither of whom were particularly in favour of a nationwide lockdown.

[MRS B 522]

Correct Brew but we believed what we were hearing at the time.

All I know is that my husband who was diagnosed with angina in his mid 40’s had covid in November 2020 and after 22 years in the Army I always thought of him as my “action man”. Now he struggles to cope after doing anything physical and is on many tablets and an inhaler despite being fully vaccinated. Problem is that he still thinks he’s in his 40’s and attempts to be so but it definitely has affected his lungs.

 

I think it all happened so quickly with spread of the virus that most of us “did as we were told” and hibernated.

[DJ360 6,730]

Further evidence of the 'macho' and cavalier approach, and absence of any real plan which existed at the time, coming from civil servant Helen MacNamara, who was described in exceptionally unflattering terms by Cummings in WhatsApp messages.

Further evidence that there was in fact no plan for pandemic preparedness or at best anything which existed was neither accessed nor considered by the Cabinet Office.

Also strong evidence that Johnson and Co neither understood nor valued scientific  input.

Just listen to her testimony.

I well recall Johnson's idiotic behaviour  shaking hands with victims and coming out with tripe to the effect we would breeze through it all in a couple of weeks, when the evidence worldwide and easily understandable by anyone of moderate intelligence pointed to the opposite. 

 

@ Brew. I'm to the left, but there is a difference between me 'vilifying any who disagree with me' And me, albeit ferociously, disagreeing with policies and wider objectives.

That said, I make no apology for villifying Johnson at every opportunity, not because I disagree with his politics, since he really doesn't have any coherent political or indeed moral principles and is driven entirely  by self interest,... but because he is and always has been a proven liar, bully, turncoat and incompetent megalomaniac.

 

[Brew 5,420]

So far Col all I've heard is playground name calling, he said she said... 

I grant he is a liar and philanderer. I've not  heard anyone use the term 'bully' so far, and I'm not qualified to diagnose megalomania, that's just yaa boo name calling. Incompetent? he rose to the highest office in the land, and not by accident.

Seriously, are we are now so short of a stick to beat him with it's down to not liking his attitude, civil servants (Helen MacNamara), not liking and complaining of his "Breezy confidence"?  Why not object to his hair, or maybe his deodorant while we're at it? It's pathetic.

 

An interpretation of part of Cummings evidence (that the cabinet had no real idea what was gong on), and understanding of the imminent danger only came about after he (Cummings), obtained the data from the NHS.

The reality of that statement actually means the civil service (the ones whinging about attitude), had not kept the cabinet informed with timely and accurate information. 

 

With this degree of pettiness there is no doubt in my mind this a full blown witch hunt and at a cost of over £100,000,000 (so far), as I say, it's pathetic.

 

At the end of this trial by media can anyone tell what benefit we will have gained from this enormous amount of money? Will councils have help with their budgets, more houses built, fewer people sleeping on the street, shorter waiting times for treatment. No? oh well, it's only taxpayers money...

 

Apart from a frenzy of self-indulgence what is the point of it all?

[DJ360 6,730]

More stuff from Helen MacNamara which boils down to her being singled out for especially  misogynistic and bullying behaviour from Cummings, with implicit collusion from Johnson, because she refused to allow Cummungs to dictate everything and operate outside of established rules, proper employment law etc.

[DJ360 6,730]

26 minutes ago, Brew said:

So far Col all I've heard is playground name calling, he said she said... 

 

 

Apart from a frenzy of self-indulgence what is the point of it all?

 

Then you are listening  with very different  sensibilities to me. MacNamara has produced far too much evidence for me to easily summarise but 'toxic misogynistic culture', 'no plan' etc are clearly in there. 

Johnson was P.M. and allowed all of that. It suited and reflected his own chaotic approach. He hired Cummings.

There is absolutely  no excuse for him.

 

Point of the enquiry? Well I agree that at the moment validity of decisions made isn't really being looked at but that that is not the stated purpose  of this phase of the enquiry. This is about governance and decision making which was clearly out of control and chaotic as well as breaking with any previous norms, for e.g. re: the proper relationship between Govt.and Civil Service, which in turn stems from Johnson's clearly dictatorial stance as demonstrated as far back as his appalling conduct during his minority Govt.

As far as I'm concerned, anything which reveals the way this govt and its political drivers have operated since day one and continue to operate outside of anything recognisable as British Democracy..is worthwhile and educative.

[Brew 5,420]

A toxic misogynistic culture, or an overly sensitive civil servant stamping her foot because Cummings upset her? And her evidence is her view, her opinion of what might at the end of the day be little more than a clash of personalities, or simply spitting her dummy out (legitimately) ,because Mr Nasty interfered far beyond his remit.

 

No plan? as I've already pointed out there can hardly be a feasible or workable plan if the civil service are not doing their job, not passing on relative information and wittering in corners about how nasty Cummings is towards women.

 

No plan if the PM became ill? there has always been a procedure if the PM is ill or dies, why she claimed that can only be if she was unaware of something she should have known.. 

 

But all this is simply internecine squabbling, it's happened before, it will happen again.

 

Johnson has degrees in Latin and Greek. I doubt he has one in mind reading so how do we know he was aware of any misogyny or that he condoned it? That's just pure supposition

 

Cherry picking phrases to amplify is to ignore the basic facts.  You seem quite willing to accept and  interpret things if it suits and disparages Johnson and the Tories in general, yet demand proof if it goes against left wing dogma. This enquiry has so far only given us rumour, conjecture and extremely biased opinions.

 

True Johnson hired Cummings... he also fired him...

[Brew 5,420]

.... another thought. we recently heard civil servants and others blatantly admit to deliberate sabotage and working against a legitimate government. With Cummings at loggerheads with the civil service would it be stretch too far to imply a similar situation during Johnsons tenure? Was the failure to forward information an oversight, incompetence or a deliberate spiteful strategy?

[Rob.L 1,090]

As regards planning for the pandemic, they did have the output from Exercise Cygnus from 2016, but seem to have conveniently ignored its findings. Although that was based on an influenza pandemic, it would have provided the framework for government action for the covid outbreak.

 

And Hancock was (on paper at least) heavily involved in that exercise, but seemed to have learned nothing from it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Cygnus

[Brew 5,420]

Apart from the fact they ignored the bit about closing intensive units and switching of ventilators, and letting people die to allow staff to be redeployed? which bits are you referring to? Or are you saying they should not have ignored it and adopted it as policy?

 

Looking down the list, and remember it was 2016, long before the outbreak, it looks as though they followed most of the recommendations in one way or another. How effectively is moot and the reason for  the present enquiry. The major cock-up to my mind was the lack of cohesion between the parties concerned.

[HSR 286]

Can't understand why this echo chamber was brought to the forefront.. (but I think I know)

 

Must be very off putting to new.. Specific Nottingham and even general nostalgia folks

 

DJ360..do you have a Utube channel?

 

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

 

If you 'think you know'  then please lighten our darkness Oh Wise One.

Otherwise I will repeat once again that you, just like all members, are entirely at liberty to read or ignore this thread.

 

You are also at liberty to post in it within the forum rules.

 

However you are NOT at liberty to constantly  imply that I am at the centre of some nefarious alternate agenda .

Your post is personally insulting, aggressive and 'Ad Hominem' and as such has been reported to the Forum moderators.

 

I will also query why it is that you attack me but not other regular contributors to this thread?

[HSR 286]

The Forum Moderator? Hmm..

I'd never heard of Duffy Power.. and

I think they have something in common.,

 

 

[Brew 5,420]

You're doing better than me Col, I didn't understand a word of it.  

HSR are you using recreational pharmaceuticals? Or just a fan of Tim Leary and counter culture prose?

[DJ360 6,730]

@Brew Duffy Power was a well respected but somewhat obscure British Rock and Roll/ Blues singer who never quite made the 'big time' and died some years ago.

Quite why HSR has introduced the name to this forum whilst simultaneously claiming to have never heard of him, I cannot imagine.

[Brew 5,420]

Hmm, like Alice said "Curiouser and curiouser"

[HSR 286]

YouTube...come and play children..stream yard or prism

.

 

[HSR 286]

24 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

@Brew Duffy Power was a well respected but somewhat obscure British Rock and Roll/ Blues singer who never quite made the 'big time' and died some years ago.

Quite why HSR has introduced the name to this forum whilst simultaneously claiming to have never heard of him, I cannot imagine.

Some Quality musicians on the sessions, Duffy's a bit shit..I like Joe Meek...more than templeman...it's a feeling thing.

Second time of asking DJ & personal number plate, brew..

Can you pair cobble a Utube channel together?

Streamyard...I prefer prism..

 

 

[Brew 5,420]

Let's hope there isn't a third...

 

[Beekay 5,152]

Does this thread come with a translation book??