Anything Political

[DJ360 6,730]

 

Not sure there are many real patterns.

Some people blame their every problem on not passing the 11+ and harbour a deep resentment, without any real understanding of what they would have been required to do. Others hated every minute of Grammar School. There seems to be a huge amount of affection for Padstow Secondary School, which my brother and sister both went to.  My late Sister, bless her, was never academic, but neither was she bothered by that. My Brother, on the other hand often relates how difficult it was to be heard through the rabble and get help from teachers if struggling with anything. He's no mug though.

[DJ360 6,730]

39 minutes ago, Brew said:

Hmmm but they were the conduit to university where most of the government comes from, and they make the rules...

 

And so were/are 'Independent' schools.. you really can't deflect all criticism of Independents by attacking Grammars.

[Brew 5,419]

I'm not attacking anything I'm merely pointing out that it seems incongruous that you think the private sector are somehow different to the grammar stream in terms of education or status. Nor do I accept criticism of independent schools.

As someone who has gone trough the somewhat esoteric route of grammar, uni and career. You above all of us are in a better position to judge yet I rather think your political persuasions will not let you see the value of private schools.

The left has always frowned on them and even started to dismantle grammar schools in 1965 and in 1998 banned them outright. 

The great levelling up of education was in my opinion a great disaster of rounding down through the comprehensive system.

[Oztalgian 3,296]

9 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I'm disappointed that you are perpetuating the misuse of the term Woke. 

That's fine DJ360 but what word would you use to describe those in society that want to rewrite history and "bend" past decisions to suit todays sometimes strange interpretations of what is right. Given the dross that appears in film and TV today surely the BBFC have other things to focus on rather than reclassifying a 1965 film.

[LizzieM 9,510]

This discussion is really interesting.  I passed the 11+ and went to Grammar School, although I was never in the A stream and left after ‘O’ Levels for the only reason that I wanted money in my pocket and didn’t fancy 2 more years of school and maybe 3 years of University. In fact at C-Le-W GS all the kids who went on to Uni appeared to study Medicine or went to Teacher Training College, neither appealed to me. 
Moving on about 15 years and our eldest son went to the local primary school in Bedfordshire.  He was doing ok but he was a shy little lad. The school sent a letter home announcing that there would soon be 38 kids in his class.  We made the decision that he would drown in that class and went searching for a Prep school for him. He and his little brother, who was nearly 5, started the next term and they loved it. It was the best decision we’ve made for our boys. They moved on up to the main school and then to University. It’s cost us many thousands of pounds but so worth it for the education, sport and the friendships and networking that have remained even now when they’re well into their forties.  We feel we made the right decision for our kids to have the same opportunities that we had for FREE at a State Grammar School in the 50s and 60s.   

And now the next generation of our clan is at an Independent Prep School and thriving.  But if Starmer has his way (when he gets in) the fees will go up another 20%.  No doubt causing already struggling parents to move their offspring into already over-subscribed state schools.  A politics of envy.  

[letsavagoo 963]

21 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

I'm disappointed that you are perpetuating the misuse of the term Woke.  There is no coherent 'woke' conspiracy. Woke is now degraded to a term which is used to belittle and undermine any and all opposition to the status quo.  I might agree with you over Mary Poppins, but I'm not playing the 'Woke' 'culture wars' game.

I think you’ve lost the battle on this issue Col. Radio 4 using the term wokery this morning. Give up. It’s in the wild.
 

 

18 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Also from Wiki

'In 2007, the newspaper was ranked first in a study on transparency

2007? I won’t Labour or argue on this matter as it is of little relevance but come on, too far back to make a judgement on their current stance. 

[Brew 5,419]

We know what 'woke' was just as we once knew what 'queer' and 'gay' meant.

We have to accept that they now have meaning and connotations entirely different to their origin.

It grates on me when i hear them and refuse to use them any way  other than in the  proper manner; the same way I refuse to acknowledge or use gender neutral pronouns.

But then again I'm just a dinosaur who never really learned not to pee into the wind.

[letsavagoo 963]

But there must be a point in time, difficult to define exactly when, but a time when the ‘new’ use of a word becomes its commonly accepted meaning. Try saying to anyone under 30 that you had a gay old time and see what reaction you get. With using the term woke or wokery, people know what you mean or are getting at. You may dislike it or feel it’s wrong, which arguably it may well be but it’s out there and unstoppable. Have we not reached the time when woke has reached the status of queer and gay. With due respect to Col and anyone else, correcting folks on a forum such as this won’t make a jot of difference. 
Brew. Are you saying you won’t use the term gay and it grates on you. Not that I have much occasion to do so but I’d certainly say for example Graham Norton is gay which I perceive is much politer that the term queer or homosexual, and with the appropriate gender gay rather than lesbian. In fact I would never use the term gay for happy, carefree etc.

[DJ360 6,730]

13 hours ago, Oztalgian said:

That's fine DJ360 but what word would you use to describe those in society that want to rewrite history and "bend" past decisions to suit todays sometimes strange interpretations of what is right. Given the dross that appears in film and TV today surely the BBFC have other things to focus on rather than reclassifying a 1965 film.

 

I wouldn't use Woke. It's too broad and ill-defined and as I say is a convenient term for the political right to use to whip up populist rage against anything and everything which doesn't suit their agenda. In that sense its misappropriation is both dishonest AND dangerous.

I've no doubt that there will be people out there who are happy to describe anyone who opposes Lee Anderson's recent inflammatory comments as 'woke'.  In the specific example you quoted, surrounding the use of an obsolete word, in an obsolete film, I would use the term 'historical revisionist' to describe the motivations of the censors. A better way in my view would be as is often done on TV, to point out that a programme contains outdated words and attitudes etc.

 

Let's get real here.  The political right doesn't really give a toss whether that word is used in that film or not.. what they do care about is employing and intensifying 'Culture Wars' as vote winners, in the absence of any worthwhile policies or track record.

[Cliff Ton 10,467]

We have to accept that language changes and develops over time. If it didn't, where would the line have been drawn ?

 

Should we still be speaking like Shakespeare; or Chaucer; or using mainly French or Latin ?

 

People tend to disapprove of anything which is not the way it was in their younger days.

 

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=words+that+have+changed+their+meaning+over+time&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#ip=1

[letsavagoo 963]

On 2/27/2024 at 10:07 AM, Beekay said:

But a female lady who sews frocks is still called a 'Seamstress'.

I have several sewing machines and sew regularly. I don’t think I’m a tailor, not that skilled, I mainly do minor alterations and currently making a dress for my granddaughters Barbie. The things we do for love.

[DJ360 6,730]

On 2/26/2024 at 8:23 AM, Stuart.C said:

The boundaries are also regularly changed in the U.K to keep the number of registered voters per ward as equal as possible.

I'm in Nottingham North which is now changing to Nottm North and Kimberley as the numbers in Nottm North have dropped below the minimum.

 

Which raises a couple of interesting issues.  Why Kirkby and not some other adjacent area?

Also, If I recall correctly, that utter Bastion of Democracy, Boris Johnson, attacked the electoral commission and removed its independence. I don't have time to further research that at the moment..but 'just saying'..

[DJ360 6,730]

7 minutes ago, Cliff Ton said:

We have to accept that language changes and develops over time. If it didn't, where would the line have been drawn ?

 

Should we still be speaking like Shakespeare; or Chaucer; or using mainly French or Latin ?

 

People tend to disapprove of anything which is not the way it was in their younger days.

 

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=words+that+have+changed+their+meaning+over+time&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#ip=1

 

Well of course Kev, you are correct in saying that words change in meaning and usage over time.  Some like those you quote, change slowly and sort of permanently. Others come and go almost by the week, such as the way youngsters communicate almost by a code, in which, for e.g., 'sick' meant ' excellent'  and 'bad, meant 'cool, or 'good' etc..

 

I still maintain that 'Woke' is a special case, because the word had a specific meaning from its origin in 1930s US black culture. It meant 'alert to injustice'.  It was revived and became much more widely known after the high profile racist murders by US Police and others which characterised Trump's 'reign'.  At that point, the American and then the UK political far right started using it as a blanket and derisory term for any and all opposition, therefore rendering its original meaning unusable and its present meaning far too broad and imprecise. This all happened in a couple of years.

[Beekay 5,150]

29 minutes ago, letsavagoo said:

I have several sewing machines and sew regularly. I don’t think I’m a tailor, not that skilled, I mainly do minor alterations and currently making a dress for my granddaughters Barbie. The things we do for love.

Your'e not on your own Lets., It's me who does all the needle work in this domain, whether it's mending a rip or taking up long trousers a couple of inches for 'er indoors. When I were single, I used to taper all my own trousers, jeans etc., and it was always a needle and thread. Don't have clue how to operate a sewing machine. Allus said I would make somebody a good wife.

[Beekay 5,150]

To me, Woke means one thing only. As in 'I woke this morning to find the sun shining through the curtain'.

Or, 'I woke him up as it was his turn to keep watch'.

can't be doing with this modern claptrap ! Just sayin'.

[DJ360 6,730]

16 hours ago, Brew said:

I'm not attacking anything I'm merely pointing out that it seems incongruous that you think the private sector are somehow different to the grammar stream in terms of education or status. Nor do I accept criticism of independent schools.

 

You continue to miss the gigantic Elephant in the Room. Even if, as is doubtful.. there is some educational equivalence between the two,  Independent Schools are only accessible to those who can afford to pay for the privelege, Grammar Schools were open to those who met the criteria of the time, FOR FREE.  It's arguable that the 11+ system created 'winners and losers'. It is a simple fact, that the existence of fee paying Independents allows a 'win' to be purchased by those who can afford to do so.

[philmayfield 6,140]

There are stringent academic entry requirements for the Nottingham High schools. Anyone falling behind academically or in the expected behavioural standards will be asked to leave. With the public boarding schools, from what I’ve experienced from some of their ex pupils, all that is required is the ability of the parents to pay the fees.

[benjamin1945 16,160]

Seems to me that many folk think that because you didnt go to Grammar school you must have failed the 11 plus.........not true.......

[philmayfield 6,140]

I’ve known plenty of 11+ ‘failures’ who’ve gone on to shine in their careers. One intelligence test at such at early age isn’t appropriate for everyone. We all develop at different rates academically and some of us are more practically inclined. I know  academics who can’t mend a fuse or, as I know currently, a retired doctor who can’t change the washer in his toilet cistern and has asked me if I can recommend a plumber!

[letsavagoo 963]

51 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

the UK political far right started using it as a blanket and derisory term for any and all opposition, therefore rendering its original meaning unusable

That may have been its original ‘misuse’ but it isn’t only the far right using it now. In many cases it’s used by people with common sense with no political inference at all.  

[Brew 5,419]

1 minute ago, DJ360 said:

It is a simple fact, that the existence of fee paying Independents allows a 'win' to be purchased by those who can afford to do so.

And if Labour did not have a socialist, almost puritanical one size fits all  policy of making everyone fit the same mould, of levelling the playing field by banning grammar schools on the basis of equal opportunity, things may well have turned out differently. But you quite happily say some are more able academically i.e. we are not equal.

 

You seem to dislike fee paying schools yet you enjoyed a school where parents had to pay considerably more that those of the  secondaries. The principle is the same, only the amount varies and it gave you access to a 'win'

 

[DJ360 6,730]

17 hours ago, Brew said:

As someone who has gone trough the somewhat esoteric route of grammar, uni and career. You above all of us are in a better position to judge yet I rather think your political persuasions will not let you see the value of private schools.

 

Yes, it all sounds very priveleged when you put it that way, but it was rather less than 'plain sailing'.

Yes, I went to a very good Grammar School because I met the criteria of the time and my parents (and wider family) contributed to equipping me with all of the 'extras' required.  I was a moderately successful student, but messed up totally after leaving, partly due to my own obstinacy/bad judgement, but also due to almost non existent career guidance.

 

I didn't go to Uni until 16 years later and only then because it was the only way I could see to get back into stable, worthwhile and reasonably well paid employment. 4 years of abject poverty, just about surviving on around £1100 per term, or roughly 'benefit rates', whilst also trying to bring up a young family. It was very hard on all of us.

 

As for 'career'. Once into the Careers Service I did very well for 12 years, though the pay wasn't exactly impressive. Steady promotion etc, all brought to a grinding halt by a massive heart attack, which caused me to take 'early retirement' at 47. After a few years doing 'bits and pieces', I felt confident enough to go back into Career Guidance, but I refused all 'promoted' posts and contented myself with managing a 'basic grade' role, until the whole thing was destroyed by the joint and malevolent attantions of Blunkett, Milburn and finally Gove. I hung on until 8 months before retirement age and that was that.

[Brew 5,419]

30 minutes ago, benjamin1945 said:

Seems to me that many folk think that because you didnt go to Grammar school you must have failed the 11 plus.........not true.......

 

That's true in my case Ben but my mam was in floods of tears after reading the demands from Mundella and after much argument with my parents I chose not to go.

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

I passed the 11+ with a high enough score to prompt the head of Berridge to pressure my mother to allow me to sit the entrance exam for NGHS. She refused. Thankfully. Mum wanted me to go to Peveril, where my sister went.  The head of Berridge wouldn't hear of it. My preference? Bugger secondary school. I wanted to work on the biscuit counter in Woolworth's. What I ended up with was Manning.  Not a good outcome.

[Brew 5,419]

The outcome was not that bad... after all it was you!