Anything Political

[DJ360 6,730]

10 hours ago, Brew said:

I seriously doubt she thought "let's make everyone self centred and greedy", what she did do was follow a policy of 'giving people more choice',  a euphemism for...  OK I surrender..

But I'm losing the will to live here, I dislike the woman almost as much as you.

 

That had me chuckling into my wine...  She was a truly horrible person with all the empathy of a Preying Mantis.  I think the way her kids turned out speaks volumes...

10 hours ago, Brew said:

Again I refute there is some sort of clandestine, Illuminati type  organisation with the sole purpose of carving up public funding.

 

Again.. that is not what I have said. I genuinely believe that the Tory party, as opposed to 'yer average' Tory voter. is a collection of crooks.  Integrity is very thin on the ground these days.  Add in that the Tory Party has a declared an open mission to 'roll back the state'. This does not translate in reality as 'shrinking the state', but as 'selling off the state'.  Their default position on all spending is 'how can we make this private?  Their second position is 'which of our supporters can we contract with?  This is so staggeringly transparent that I am at a loss to understand how you can either not see it, or not admit it.  It doesn't need to be a secret, clandestine organisation.. they are totally blatant about it.

 

11 hours ago, Brew said:

Over 60 companies received the specifications for a ventilator from government, Vauxhall and Airbus being two I can think of but to change the production lines would be a massive, not to say hugely expensive operation. Which of the 60 were more capable and ignored and of those 60, how many responded with a credible plan?

 

I think the decision to go with Dyson and JCB was sound judgement regardless of their political affiliation (though I admit I originally looked at the Dyson decision with some scepticism).

What other companies could do what they did? If it went to one of the nationalised industries of old they would still arguing over the colour never mind actually making one.

 

This is not quite the same issue as the general theft/misappropriation of public money since Thatcher.  However what I remember is companies who were already in the business of ventilator/similar production who just needed some Govt help to expand, but were totally ignored by Govt while they tasked Dyson/JCB with working from the ground up. However effective both were (and I've clearly not heard what you've heard), I believe they'd have been far more effective if Govt had been less obsessed with dishing out funds to their buddies.

 

11 hours ago, Brew said:

Dyson.  Came up with a working model in 30 days! I seriously doubt there are many companies more capable than that. How much taxpayers money did they get for what is a quite exceptional achievement? ZERO!  Dyson paid the 20 million development costs himself and accepted no public money.

 

Did it go into production?  I genuinely don't know.  I can only hope that if it did, it didn't have the same propensity for falling to bits as the only Dyson vacuum I ever bought.  Dyson is clearly an innovative engineer, but his products lack durability and reliability.  I.E. They fall to bits.

 

11 hours ago, Brew said:

Of course they are, it's how business works and it's incumbent on the directors as part of their duty to the shareholders to pursue every opportunity they have the capacity to meet. 

Private enterprise has several advantages  over a statutory authority and can, react quickly to change, raise the necessary capital, access the expertise available in the labour market,  have economies of scale,  accept the business risk etc. etc.

 

Most of that is pure mythology. The duty to shareholders is to make money and that has no necessary connection with delivering a quality service. Private enterprise is no quicker to react than Public.  That is another myth. You said above that it was difficult for some Private companies to re-purpose production lines...  You can't have it both ways.

 

Many years ago in my early days as a Careers Adviser, a local YTS Training Provider went 'bust'.  It was effectively a private company which existed to make profit out of Govt. funded training for young people.  It later transpired that the owner/manager ( I could name him..) buggered off with a lot of Govt money. It also transpired that the then Manpower Services Commission.. which was responsible for contracting with such organisations..took no action against him. The only plausible explanation being that it would reflect badly on the Auditing and general oversight of the Manpower Services Commission.

Meanwhile.. the Local Authority Careers Service for which I worked, was on the case the morning the news broke and within 24 hours we had placed all the young victims in alternative but appropriate training opportunities. We were able to do this because we knew our area, our local employer base, the other training organisations and the local FE colleges.. as well as having information of every one of the young people concerned, gathered through our routine guidance activities.  Quality exists in both public and private sectors.

 

You also mentioned 'accessing the expertise available in the Labour Market'.  That is a very sore point with me.

It is a feature of many of the 'contracts' which the Tories have issued for dealing with those social issues which even they cannot ignore.. that they have typically 'de-skilled' functions both by dishing out unimaginative and simplistic closely targeted contracts, and by specifying lower qualifications for those empoyed to deliver.

Careers Advisers were almost all graduate and Post Grad Qualified.  Gove thought any teacher with a few spare minutes could do the job.. and out of school an NVQ Level 2 would do.

Probation was reduced from a specialism within Social Work, to a cheap qualification.

Similar trashing was applied to Environmental Health, Trading Standards and other Local Authority functions as they were forcibly contracted out.

 

This is not just 'Business'.  It is the deliberate destruction of systems of support and regulation developed since Mediaeval times.

 

12 hours ago, Brew said:

In some instances they have been found wanting, that much is true but in the main we only ever hear of the cock-ups, never the humdrum boring old stories where the system simply works.

I suspect in some cases local authorities would be only  too happy to offload a service.

 

I'm certain we also rarely hear about those instances where the system simply doesn't work, because they are not sufficiently newsworthy, especially to the Tory friendly press.  Most people are not sufficiently aware of the technicalities of all this stuff to have an opinion and are being shafted blind.

I've often commented that I can see what is going wrng with areas where I have some expertise and knowledge.. God only knows what is happening is areas I have no knowledge of.

 

Quote

From Wikipaedia.

NHS Services

In June 2014 it was reported that at least five of eight Liverpool NHS Trusts which had contracted their payroll and recruitment to Capita in 2012 were withdrawing because of concerns about the quality of the service provided.^[45] Several NHS trusts contracted with the company for human resources services. West London Mental Health NHS Trust cancelled their contract in September 2014 after the company proved "unable to meet acceptable 'time to hire' targets", particularly for nurses. At the same time Alder Hey Children's NHS Foundation Trust and Liverpool Heart and Chest Hospital NHS Foundation Trust terminated their contracts.^[46]

In November Mersey Care Trust revealed that "information governance issues" had been uncovered when the services were taken back in-house. Details of staff at other Merseyside trusts were sent to Liverpool Community Health Trust’s HR department.^[47]

The company was awarded a 4-year contract to become sole provider of administrative services including payment administration, management of medical records and eligibility lists of practitioners for GPs, opticians and dentists across the UK by NHS England in June 2015.^[48] In July 2016 it was reported that there was "a large backlog of unprocessed correspondence relating to patients". It was earlier reported that the company was unable to deal "effectively" with the movement of paper records between practices.^[49]

In 2015, an undercover Daily Telegraph investigation showed that in some cases locum agencies, Medicare and Team24 owned by Capita were charging some hospitals higher fees than others and giving false company details. The agencies were charging up to 49% of the fee. Health secretary Jeremy Hunt criticised agencies who sought "big profits" at the expense of the NHS and taxpayers and promised to "reduce the margins rip-off agencies are able to generate."^[50]

The company established Primary Care Support England in September 2015, replacing former regional services provided by each local health authority. The new service was described as shambolic by the Local Optical Committee Support Unit and the Optical Confederation.^[51] A deal was negotiated to enable optician practices to claim interest, administrative costs and bank charges on late payments of General Ophthalmic Services fees by Capita.^[52] In August 2016 a survey of GPs found 85% were missing records of recently registered patients, 65% had experienced shortages of clinical supplies or delays in deliveries, and 32% had suffered from missed or delayed payments. Delays in the payment of GP trainees' salaries were also reported.^[53] The situation was repeated in October 2017 with The Guardian reporting that "hundreds" of trainee GPs had not been paid. Capita was unable to say how many were affected in what the Cameron fund - a GP hardship charity - blamed on "another botched privatisation."^[54] Inadequacies by Capita may have put patients at risk. The National Audit Office maintains almost 90 women were told incorrectly they were no longer in the cervical screening programme. Patients could have been at risk due to trouble with the 'performers list' a list of NHS dentists, GP's and opticians. "The failure to update performers lists may have compromised patient safety in cases where practitioners should have been removed," the report authors maintained. Roughly 1,000 dentists, doctors and opticians could not work in 2016 due to delays processing new applications.^[55] Further failures included a backlog of 500,000 patient registration letters, failure to deliver medical supplies, and patients' medical records being lost or delayed.^[56]

In March 2019 Simon Stevens announced that the cervical screening programme administration they had been running would be brought back in house.^[57]

Education services

• SIMS.net – Schools Information Management Software a Management information system used in 70% of primary and secondary schools across England and Wales to record many aspects of pupil data.^[58] In March 2009, Capita SIMS was said to be responsible for sending a truancy warning notice to the family of a Cheshire school pupil who had died two months before.^[59] SIMS also links with Capita One (through a process called B2B), which is a database used within Local Education Authorities for general analysis and overview of pupil and school data.^[60]
• Individual Learning Account – A£290million scheme intended to give financial support to adult learners that was opened in 2000 and scrapped in 2001 following widespread and massive fraud.^[61]
• Connexions Card – A£109million scheme that involved issuing 16- to 19-year-olds with smart cards that recorded their lesson attendance and rewarded them with discounts on consumer goods. It ran from 2002 until it was terminated in 2006 owing to lack of uptake.^[62]
• Education Maintenance Allowance for the Learning and Skills Council^[63]
• Capita Education Resourcing - Capita Education Resourcing is an education recruitment specialist with a large networks of schools, colleges and nurseries across England and Wales. They have 19 offices covering teaching jobs operating throughout the UK.^[64]

Irish postcodes

In 2014, Capita were awarded the contract to introduce postcodes to the Republic of Ireland. The Irish communications minister has welcomed the implementation saying that the Irish code is the first in the world to be unique to each individual address. The scheme was launched in July 2015.^[65]

The emergency services have expressed concern that the new system may lead to responders having difficulty getting to incidents.^[66] Further, the Irish Data Protection Authority has raised concerns over the design of the code as information about individuals will be made more accessible.^[67] Liam Duggan, CEO of Capita Ireland stated at a Government enquiry in 2014 that they had thoroughly tested the new system for unsuitable words and even used a game of Scrabble for this purpose.^[68]

The project is generally running to programme and budget: roll out, which was originally planned to start in March 2015, will now take place in "mid-2015" and the cost, which was originally budgeted at €25 million has increased to €27 million.^[69]

Criticism

Capita Group has not been received well by the public and in the media. It has gained the nickname "Crapita", particularly from the coverage in the satirical and current affairs magazine Private Eye, which routinely documents the company's many failures and setbacks in the public sector.^[70][71]

Pindar himself has attracted criticism for complaining about being called a 'fat cat', due to his a £770,000 per annum salary and ownership of an Aston Martin DB9. "It really takes the biscuit—especially when you consider his workers are fighting for a rise equivalent to just four pints of milk a week", said a workers' representative. The average Capita employee salary at the time was £28,000 per year.^[71]

It was revealed in January 2013 that Capita was embroiled in a scandal over misinforming people that they had to leave the UK as they had no valid visa. One such person was, in fact, the holder of a UK passport.^[72]

In 2014, a leak to The Guardian revealed that the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) had to send civil servants in to help the company process personal independence payments for the seriously ill and the disabled. "Waiting times for assessment," the newspaper noted, "have been so long that in some cases people with terminal conditions have died before receiving a penny."^[73]

The 2015 sale of a government research operation charged with overlooking food safety to Capita has been criticized by Tim Lang, an advisor to the UK government and the WHO on food safety issues.^[74] Arguing that a for-profit operation will be under pressure to ignore low-paying projects vital to public safety and the environment, he indicates that there is no profit in public research concerning food and biodiversity or food and pesticide residues, and predicts "commercial concerns will skew Fera's priorities"^[74]

Former Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron questioned how Atos and Capita could have been paid over £500m from taxpayers money for assessing fitness to work as 61% who appealed won their appeals. Farron stated, "This adds to the suspicion that these companies are just driven by a profit motive, and the incentive is to get the assessments done, but not necessarily to get the assessments right. They are the ugly face of business."^[75]

Capita has also been criticised for several issues involving army recruitment.^[76]

 

 

12 hours ago, Brew said:

Labour are demanding a debate on the topic and for once I can say I totally agree with them. I'm not privy to all the facts but on the evidence in the Times Jenricks appears to  be corrupt. Johnson in his last weeks as mayor gave the nod to a proposal but the one at present is somewhat different and has been expanded beyond recognition. It remains to be seen how much Boris is involved.

 

In a sense it matters not how directly involved Johnson is.. though if he is it ought to signal the end of his tenure. The fact that he seeks to use his position as P.M. to override Law and Democracy by declaring the matter 'Closed'.. is more worrying. 

[Brew 5,422]

12 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Again.. that is not what I have said. I genuinely believe that the Tory party, as opposed to 'yer average' Tory voter. is a collection of crooks.  Integrity is very thin on the ground these days.  Add in that the Tory Party has a declared an open mission to 'roll back the state'. This does not translate in reality as 'shrinking the state', but as 'selling off the state'.

 

It may not exactly be your words but it's certainly the impression you give is that there is a coterie of millionaire/billionaires inveigling to relieve the taxpayer of as much as they can.

 

The concept of rolling back the state is neither new nor radical; various proposals for reducing state involvement have been around for years.

Blair set the cat among the pigeons when he said he wanted reforms to reduce the role of the state in the provision of public services, something he wanted including in the manifesto though I can't remember if it made it

Blair had a grand idea of reshaping Thatcher’s despised ‘society’ and as part of his scheme turned the Labour party into 'New Labour' after rewriting clause 4. (Corbyn wanted to change it back). Blair was also a master of the specious turn of phrase:  

 'The partnership economy', 'New Labour's Millennium Challenge', 'the Third Way' and more besides. None of which did anything but allow him to cosy up to the Americans and obfuscate at the hustings whilst introducing privatisation and semi- privatisation through the back door.

12 hours ago, DJ360 said:

This is not quite the same issue as the general theft/misappropriation of public money since Thatcher. 

 

Change of focus there?

Neither JCB nor Dyson went into production, existing companies (like the Swedish owned Breas), and a collaboration with Mercedes ramped up production of standard ventilators on lines setup by Ventilator Challenge UK and met the demand (by freeing up the need for invasive ventilators).

None of the existing manufacturers produce the intensive care version it was expected would be needed so you can't accuse them of being ignored if they don't produce the machines.

Of all the companies that took part in the challenge Dyson was first to market (first working model in two weeks, lines ready in four) and it’s logical when the supply of ventilators could be vital to life you go with the one most likely to meet your needs and deliver. A remarkable achievement whichever way you look at it. In the event Dyson and the other consortiums were not needed and stood down.

The government didn’t ignore anyone, they took the precaution, for which praise must be due, of ensuring a supply of equipment should existing manufacturers fail to meet demand.

As an aside can you really denigrate a company like Dyson purely on your experience of one faulty, albeit expensive, product?

12 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Most of that is pure mythology. The duty to shareholders is to make money and that has no necessary connection with delivering a quality service. Private enterprise is no quicker to react than Public.  That is another myth. You said above that it was difficult for some Private companies to re-purpose production lines...  You can't have it both ways.

 

It’s not mythology at all and I’m unsure of your definition of a ‘quality service’. The reaction  I refer to means more than just the ability to change a product line as well you know. Why would a company pursue an opportunity if not to make money? And should they fail to deliver a quality product/service, fit for purpose they would not be in business very long.

12 hours ago, DJ360 said:

You also mentioned 'accessing the expertise available in the Labour Market'.  That is a very sore point with me.

It is a feature of many of the 'contracts' which the Tories have issued for dealing with those social issues which even they cannot ignore.. that they have typically 'de-skilled' functions both by dishing out unimaginative and simplistic closely targeted contracts, and by specifying lower qualifications for those empoyed to deliver.

Your early career experience is just a case of one bad apple and cannot be considered as indicative of a general malaise in the service.  Many shops have a policy of banning shoplifters rather than prosecution. I also think the obvious bad experience with your career has left you with a very jaundiced view.

It may be a harsh judgement but the services you mention are difficult to quantify in terms of effectiveness and value to the taxpayer. Change is inevitable, you said yourself it’s been changing and developing since medieval times - not always to the good it’s true but if we didn’t accept change and move on clerks would still be using quills.

Nottingham Environmental Health, Trading Standards etc. are still in the remit of the council.

 

Most people are not sufficiently aware of the technicalities of all this stuff to have an opinion and are being shafted blind.

I've often commented that I can see what is going wrng with areas where I have some expertise and knowledge.. God only knows what is happening is areas I have no knowledge of

Quite frankly if you go through life expecting perfection you will be bitterly disappointed.

 

13 hours ago, DJ360 said:

n June 2014 it was reported that at least five of eight Liverpool NHS Trusts which had contracted their payroll and recruitment to Capita in 2012 were withdrawing because of concerns about the quality of the service provided

The NHS I’ve read before and yes it was/is a shambles, no argument but pay peanuts you buy monkeys.

SIMS made one cock up, upsetting for those concerned but hardly earth shattering.

The ILA fraud was a criminal act and should be viewed as such. Things like this happen all the time, it’s what criminals do.

Connexions card was hardly a success but if you don’t try these things you will never know. I could have been the best thing since sliced bread to students.

EMA and the LSC have 19 offices – your point being?

Not sure why you brought Ireland into the discussion as I see very little to criticise about it. Capita seem to have the job nailed down but other agencies are sticking their oar in and muddying the waters.

I have to accept that the company Capita are less than I expect (pretty dire if I'm truthful), and as a result of one of your earlier posts I have divested my shares in the company.

Thanks for the  tax bill!  

13 hours ago, DJ360 said:

The fact that he seeks to use his position as P.M. to override Law and Democracy by declaring the matter 'Closed'.. is more worrying. 

 

And Blair didn't use his position to get his son out of jail? Drinking under age, drunk and disorderly in a public place, giving a false name to the police when arrested... overriding the law seems to be a  prerequisite for the job

[MargieH 7,604]

Just listening to Mr Johnson's speech this morning and I've decided I feel a bit sorry for the chappie .  He really isn't a good orator when speaking about something so serious as the present situation.   I can see he's trying SO hard to speak with a certain authority in the style of Churchill maybe?  .... I kept waiting for him to say "we will fight them on the beaches ...".   

I think his strength is more in the cut and thrust and even banter in the Commons.   

I know that party politics shouldn't be about personalities but I really DO feel a bit sorry for him...

[DJ360 6,730]

I know you like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt Margie, but I don't feel sorry for him at all. 

 

The reality is that all politics is about personalities. People are judged as much on their utterances as on their actions.  I'm afraid Johnson, for me, fails on all counts.

 

He may want to emulate Churchill.  He may even think he can.. but he very clearly has neither the wit nor the oratory to do so.  I might forgive that if I didn't also see the darker side of his ambition.

 

I think it's also broadly agreed that he gets regularly 'slaughtered' in the Commons due to his unpreparedness, his bluster and inability to clearly articulate when under pressure.

 

He has, as they say, made his own bed and must lie in it.  And he lies without thinking. He's also a proven bully.  Once you strip it all back the only thing left is the 'loveable clown' act which some (not me) find attractive.  He's also clearly not his 'own man', but heavily influenced by the exceptionally creepy Cummings.. whose ideas are frankly dangerous.

 

Johnson forced his way into this position by lying about Brexit, lying to the Queen, sacking anyone with any integrity in his own party and creating a cabinet like a 'Ship of Fools' from the dregs that were left.  The only competent Cabinet member I can see is Sunak and although he's clever, I'm less than convinced by his priorities.

 

It's clear from Johnson's career record that he finds truth somewhat alien, work a bit of a challenge and detail all a bit tiresome.

I'm sure that equally dubious characters such as  the supremely ignorant Gove,  fraudster Schapps and even Priti Patel, with her terminal lack of awareness.. would all gladly jump into his shoes.

 

  All I heard this a.m. was his rant about speeding things up. (I'll listen to it all later). All code for riding roughshod through planning and other regulation.  He's trying to get support for that by claiming it's stopping young people getting on the housing ladder. Thing is it's neither planning nor speed causing that.  It's the continual failure/unwillingness of Govt to enable/require/enforce the building of affordable property, much less decent 'social' housing.

 

He's also clearly 'gearing up' to deliver some of the very anti-democratic 'reforms' which were quietly signalled in his manifesto.He really didn't like Parliament refusing to allow him to dictate from a minority position and has 'scores' to settle.

[Brew 5,422]

I bet you're glad you posted now eh Margie!     .

 

C'mon Col be fair. So he tells a lie or three, has affairs, has two illegitimate children, is a back stabbing so n so but don't you think he's just a little bit cuddly?   

[radfordred 6,284]

Boris is showing great leadership in a unique situation, just thankful the spineless yellow back Corbyn, who would be still hiding in self isolation is not running the UK, We'd be on our 3rd referendum by now, I doff my cap to Boris.

[DJ360 6,730]

16 minutes ago, Brew said:

So he tells a lie or three, has affairs, has two illegitimate children, is a back stabbing so n so

 

Yep. but apart from that what have the Romans ever done for us.? 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

10 minutes ago, radfordred said:

Boris is showing great leadership in a unique situation,

 

Examples please?

[Brew 5,422]

Col you need to recognise a fishing trip when you see it...

[DJ360 6,730]

I do, but I play along..

[letsavagoo 963]

Well here’s a turn up. I agree with you analysis of Boris Col. I have been very unimpressed by him. The debacle over Cummings and Gove trying to defend him. I was squirming in my seat. I’m glad That Mr Cor Bean didn’t get in but it’s not been a poor show so far.

[philmayfield 6,144]

I think Boris was probably the best of a bad lot. Obviously Labour had no hope with their poor, indecisive leader but Boris had a certain amount of appeal to the masses with his charisma. Whether he will stay the course of this parliament when his lack of ability is fully realised remains to be seen. I can't see an obvious replacement at the moment.

 

[catfan 14,793]

Any labour leader would have been a disaster.

[DJ360 6,730]

7 hours ago, philmayfield said:

Obviously Labour had no hope with their poor, indecisive leader but Boris had a certain amount of appeal to the masses with his charisma. Whether he will stay the course of this parliament when his lack of ability is fully realised remains to be seen. I can't see an obvious replacement at the moment.

 

It all goes back to Cameron's cowardice in the face of the far right 'Leave' lot in his party.  He was scared of them and the Referendum was the result.  It turned Cameron's 'Little Local Difficulty' into a national obsession, but sadly one in which few decisions were based on facts. Boris.. who had previously been pro Europe, saw his opportunity to jump on a bandwagon.. any bandwagon.. or Red Bus of Lies. to achieve his lifelong ambition to hold power. I won't rehearse his borderline criminal treatment of Parliament again.

 

Oddly, what we got was a contest between two diametrically opposed personalities. ..

 

Corbyn, for me, is a man of deep integrity, but lousy presentation.  He is so determined never to betray his principles even slightly, that he fails to embrace the need for pragmatism in the political arena and can't easily reduce his intelligent message to a soundbyte.

 

Johnson, in stark contrast is a total stranger to principles. He will lie and con his way as far as he can get.  Still... guided by Cummings, unhampered by any semblance of conscience and supported by an almost completely Tory press.. he came up with a simple and simplistic message 'Get Brexit Done'.

 

He tried the same trick with Covid.  I don't recall if he ever said 'Get Coronavirus Done' .. but he did say we'd beat it 'in a couple of weeks'.. after he'd finally recognised that it actually represented a threat.

 

The upside is that I am not disappointed in Johnson.  He has performed exactly as I expected. 

[DJ360 6,730]

On 6/29/2020 at 2:59 PM, Brew said:

It may not exactly be your words but it's certainly the impression you give is that there is a coterie of millionaire/billionaires inveigling to relieve the taxpayer of as much as they can.

 

Maybe if I put it this way.  Tory Govts. are usually very keen to cut public spending. This may be to 'correct' alleged overspending by a previous Labour Govt... which is usually a myth, but more likely just to allow for tax cuts for the rich.  If such cuts result in the destruction of services they don't care.

 

However, where it is not possible, or politically expedient to cut completely, they privatise. They push an awful lot of money towards 'preferred bidders' of the Serco, Crapita, G4S, Carillion mould. As you have found, Crapita are essentially the business equivalent of scavengers.  They first gain the contract.. which for some reason seems easy for them despite an appalling record of failure.. then they try to figure out how to meet it. I didn't mention before that our oldest friends are a couple, one of whom suffered at the hands of Crapita as a Teacher, the other suffered at their hands as a Payroll Administrator in a Merseyside NHS trust.  She has described to me in detail the complete incompetence of the Crapita employees, their lack of understanding and the pressure they were clearly under from their bosses to 'deliver'.. which resulted in some of them retreating in tears. Quality service clearly doesn't figure.

 

On 6/29/2020 at 2:59 PM, Brew said:

Blair had a grand idea of reshaping Thatcher’s despised ‘society’ and as part of his scheme turned the Labour party into 'New Labour' after rewriting clause 4. (Corbyn wanted to change it back). Blair was also a master of the specious turn of phrase:  

 

I'm not here to defend Blair. I'd sooner have had him than what preceded or followed. Interesting though that he tried to win 'middle England' with his 'Tory Lite' stuff, just as Johnson is now trying to win the lower echelons with 'Levelling Up'.

Both rely on a poorly informed/gulled electorate.

On 6/29/2020 at 2:59 PM, Brew said:

The government didn’t ignore anyone, they took the precaution, for which praise must be due, of ensuring a supply of equipment should existing manufacturers fail to meet demand.

 

As an aside can you really denigrate a company like Dyson purely on your experience of one faulty, albeit expensive, product?

 

OK, maybe Govt. were lightly less crap than I stated on this issue.  However.... there's a whole 'nuther story in their 'Defend the NHS' strategy whiich has barely been developed yet.

 

I don't think I denigrated Dyson. I just reported my experience.

 

On 6/29/2020 at 2:59 PM, Brew said:

It’s not mythology at all and I’m unsure of your definition of a ‘quality service’.

 

This is key to my opposition to Tory versions of Public Service.  The point is that Tory Govt contracts set the bar low, have low ambition and often a poor understanding of needs. They tend to focus on small, targeted symptoms of wider problems and imagine that by removing a symptom, you remove the problem.

So.. if you employ a few barely qualified people to work 'intensively' with young people who are 'NEET' and push them into half baked training, low quality apprenticeships etc.. you can create the illusion that you are doing something by stopping them from being 'NEET'.. but in reality you are only succeeding according to your own standards.

They are mostly only 'NEET' because your education, training, employment etc.. offers them nothing.

On 6/29/2020 at 2:59 PM, Brew said:

It may be a harsh judgement but the services you mention are difficult to quantify in terms of effectiveness and value to the taxpayer. Change is inevitable, you said yourself it’s been changing and developing since medieval times - not always to the good it’s true but if we didn’t accept change and move on clerks would still be using quills.

 

Nottingham Environmental Health, Trading Standards etc. are still in the remit of the council.

 

 

Career Guidance is exceptionally dificult to value, but a bit like luck, the harder it works the better it is... 

It's odd that, for e.g. public libraries haven't suffered as much.. since they also struggle to prove their worth.. but they are more visible and more obviously relevant for all ages.

 

On 6/29/2020 at 2:59 PM, Brew said:

And Blair didn't use his position to get his son out of jail? Drinking under age, drunk and disorderly in a public place, giving a false name to the police when arrested... overriding the law seems to be a  prerequisite for the job

 

As I said above... I'm not here to defend Blair.  But I'm sure you can see the difference between a parent defending a son who has done what many sons do.. and a Prime Minister defending both a man who disobeyed the very 'rules' he was responsible for creating.. in a way which was hugely damaging to the national resolve over Covid.. then went on to defend a clearly bent member of his cabinet involved in an abuse of power which could deprive a poor area of £45M.

[Brew 5,422]

 

52 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Corbyn, for me, is a man of deep integrity, but lousy presentation.  He is so determined never to betray his principles even slightly,

and

She demanded her own way - the ladies not for turning...

 

Can you not see the irony of your words here? Corbyn a man of absolutely iron principles. Thatcher a lady with equally strong conviction. One you praise, one you vilify. You praised Corbyn and admire his conviction because you agree with him - you disagree with Thatcher and so revile everything about her. She sacked 'wets' so did Corbyn and Johnson and now Starmer is wielding the axe.

What did Kar say - plus ça change...

[DJ360 6,730]

Yebbut.  Thatcher imposed her ideas on us.. after she was elected.  Much like the way Osborne imposed Austerity.

 

Corbyn only 'offered' his ideas.  They were rejected by the population. (Assuming they were understood.. which is a massive assumption) I didn't praise Corbyn.. nor did I say I admired his conviction.  I simply contrasted it with Johnson's lack thereof and pointed out its political cost.

 

Given the true alternative represented by Johnson, I believe the electorate will eventually realise they were conned.

[Brew 5,422]

On 6/29/2020 at 1:40 AM, DJ360 said:

I can only hope that if it did, it didn't have the same propensity for falling to bits as the only Dyson vacuum I ever bought.  Dyson is clearly an innovative engineer, but his products lack durability and reliability.  I.E. They fall to bits.

 

Seems a lot like a denigration to me...

 

Why this obsession with taxing the rich? They probably use fewer public services than  average so why punish them for being successful? When we've hammered  everyone down to the same level  - who we going to pick on then?

 

37 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

The point is that Tory Govt contracts set the bar low, have low ambition and often a poor understanding of needs.

 

Not sure, I would have  thought that the expected standards remained at least the same with the aim of improvement.

Possible libel deleted here...

 

I have no idea what NEET means but I will say I and others of this parish seem singularly unimpressed with their experience of the careers advice given to them...

 

As to  Blair's son it was a throwaway line to demonstrate Johnson was not unique in abusing his office. Euan though it must be said broke not one but several laws and giving false information to a policeman is something magistrates tend to take a dim view of....    Be ye ever so high...

Of course if it was my son I'd do exactly the same, I expect any father would.

[Brew 5,422]

57 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Yebbut.  Thatcher imposed her ideas on us.. after she was elected. 

 and Corbyn wouldn't? he seemed pretty determined to impose his philosophy on the shadow cabinet at the time..

[catfan 14,793]

Corbyn visited our flats just prior to the last election. When asked if I would like to meet him I declined much preferring going to Tesco with Mrs C instead. 

I hate shopping.

[DJ360 6,730]

On 6/29/2020 at 2:59 PM, Brew said:

Nottingham Environmental Health, Trading Standards etc. are still in the remit of the council.

 

I'd check that.  I've not looked at Environmental Health...  but much of Trading Standards was dumped into the lap of local Citizen's Advice in a typical Tory move about 6 or 7 years ago. So, while it may appear to be a Local Authority function it's actual constitution is less clear.

 

I called my local Trading Standards a couple of years ago and was answered by Citizen's Advice.

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2127560/Changes-trading-standards-means-millions-risk-Del-Boy-rogues.html

[Brew 5,422]

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I'd check that. 

 

I did and it quite clearly states on the web site they are employees of Nottinghamshire County Council.

 

Quote:

 

"Our officers are employed by Nottinghamshire County Council, but provide services across the country."

 

See also:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trading_Standards

 

 

 

The link you offer is from 2012 and was a proposal  by a Liberal Democrat. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

OK, I surrender....  A bit...

 

Further research shows that many (possibly all?) Local Authority Trading Standards Depts. use Citizen's Advice for initial consumer contact.  This includes NCC.

The impression I'm getting is that Citizen's Advice is employed at the 'front end', and that Trading Standards Officers are employed more on enforcement.  I did not need to employ them as the advice I got from Citizen's Advice allowed me to make effective threats to the rogue tyre dealer who was trying to screw me, by quoting the relevant legislation and threatening him with court action.  He paid up a few days later.  

[DJ360 6,730]

22 hours ago, Brew said:

I have no idea what NEET means

 

'Not In Education Employment or Training'.  It's pretty much accepted usage in youth employment circles these days...

 

22 hours ago, Brew said:

but I will say I and others of this parish seem singularly unimpressed with their experience of the careers advice given to them...

 

 

It's entirely possible some advice was crap.. but then it was only ever part of a process of decision making and as far  as I know it has never been compulsory to act on advice... especially if you think it's crap.

 

More seriously.  Most of us in these debates are retired and in the 70+ age group, so that it is entirely possible that advice was delivered from largely untrained 'Juvenile/Youth Employment Officers' working for the Department of Employment, because Local Authority Education Dept. based 'Careers Officers' did not emerge until around 1968 and even then only as an option for Local Authorities. Delivery via an Education Dept based service was only made compulsory in 1972 I think.

 

It's also possible that people are reporting lousy advice from other sources.. such as Teachers.. 'Careers Masters' etc.  that's what happened to me in HP.

 

It's also the case that we all tend to ascribe our failures to others and our successes to ourselves.

 

I'm not going through it all again in detail.. but I can honestly say that I never 'told' anybody that they 'should be' anything. Most young people presented anyway with ideas of their own and wanting to know how to make them happen.  Others were clearly under or over aspiring, so that a gentle nudge towards more achieveable/realistic goals was in order.  But I NEVER told anybody what to do.. and I NEVER told anybody that they 'couldn't be' anything. The whole point of Guidance is to get people to look at themselves, and the facts, and the options.. and to arrive at realistic decisions accordingly.  I only ever checked their plans, pointed out potential pitfalls, suggested alternative routes to the same goal, or asked them to consider related but potentially rewarding objectives of which they were unaware.

 

It's important  to recognise that the post 16 'opportunity landscape' became increasingly bleak, yet increasingly complex from 1970s onwards. It could be a minefield.  So too could HE choice and access. There was not (nor is there now) any reason to suppose that young people knew their way through this stuff. It wasn't taught by schools. The only people... apart maybe from odd 'enlightened' parents, who were making kids aware of this stuff were local Career Services.  I worked with my caseload from Year 9 (Third Year secondary) and via groupwork and individual interviews, to get them thinking about this stuff... 

I challenged them and asked them what they thought they might want to do?..why?..and how it would work.?. how would they train/qualify../ where? Who would pay? Etc, etc.

 

I was bloody good at it.  I can't answer for those who weren't... but maybe tomorrow I'll point you to a few 'learned' articles etc., on how we went from being a country with a generally acknowledged 'World Beating Career Guidance System'. to the shambles we have now.

[Oztalgian 3,298]

I left school in the mid 60's and I am almost certain we had careers advisors then as I remember being told that as I was good with my hands I should be an Engine Room Artificer and suggested the Merchant Marine as a career. I had no idea what an artificer was so I looked it up in a dictionary and decided it was not for me.

My dad was adamant that I was not going down the pit so I started looking for apprenticeships. The first job I was offered was as an electronics engineering apprentice, I had to decline that job as getting there via public transport took almost two hours each way. Strangely enough I ended up working for a division of the same company when we came to Australia in 1975