Anything Political

[Alpha 176]

Not to mention the Omagh and other bombings that killed and maimed innocent women and children!

[DJ360 6,733]

Facebook just reminded me of a post I made 2 years ago, as we embarked on the Great Brexit Adventure..or Fiasco, depending on your viewpoint.  I still feel the same..or worse.. about what a miserable little country this has become 

 

" Feb. 1st. 2020. Oddly, I didn't wake up this morning feeling suddenly more free. I didn't feel more 'sovereign', less 'oppressed'.. or any of the other mythical cobblers I was supposed to feel as we (begin to..) leave the EU. What I felt was cheated.. by the liars whose incessant rantings about 'taking back control' and incessant lies about bent bananas actually caused people to believe that we had somehow lost control.  We hadn't. What I felt was saddened, that we are deliberately walking away from all of the many benefits of cooperation in an increasingly interconnected World, and exchanging them for a small minded isolationist xenophobic 'Little England' fantasy, which will actually translate into a nightmare in which every power group in the World will take advantage of our self imposed weakness.  What I felt was ashamed, that our once great, outgoing, welcoming, tolerant and fair minded country.. has been replaced by a nasty little inward looking refuge for all of the racists, xenophobes, proto-fascists and grubby little bar room tub thumpers who think that they have a right to define Britishness on their own, ignorant, narrow, flag waving terms.  This is not freedom."

[Brew 5,423]

 

7 hours ago, DJ360 said:

What I felt was ashamed, that our once great, outgoing, welcoming, tolerant and fair minded country.. has been replaced by a nasty little inward looking refuge for all of the racists, xenophobes, proto-fascists and grubby little bar room tub thumpers who think that they have a right to define Britishness on their own, ignorant, narrow, flag waving terms.  This is not freedom."

 

Err, when was this Col? It sounds like a middle class, but misguided ideal. A concept for the those with rose-tinted glasses and never grew up in what is now euphemistically called an 'inner city area'. It's a hankering for a more genteel period where manners, tolerance and standards were… well actually non-existent!

 

I was born in Sneinton 76 years ago where the Irish were called ‘scum of the earth’ and vilified simply for being here, not by all I agree, but enough that a very young boy was aware of it.  

 

Fairness and welcoming?

 

Xenophobia  went up a gear and became racism when the colour of immigrants skin made them easily identifiable.

Race riots over ‘foreigners stealing jobs’ have been with us since the end of the first world war. They started again after WW2, with Brixton a prime example, and Nottingham was among the first in 1958. Brixton again became a battleground in 1981. Bristol, Leeds. Bradford… The list goes on and on.

Xenophobia is a tribal mindset  whereby we defend our territory against all comers, starting those most obviously different.

 

proto-fascists?

 

Fascism in the UK  is, to my mind, nowhere near as prevalent as it was in the days when Mosley organised  his black shirts.

 

Harking back to a golden age when Britishness was something to behold is, like the great days of the Empire, a myth. There has always been that class from late 1800s onward, that thought of Africa as the Dark Continent and fuzzy-wuzzies, (thank you Kipling). The language may have changed, the attitude hasn't. And let's not forget it wasn't just the 'toffs', the working class were just as guilty in harbouring such resentments.

 

Nationalism today is on the rise and racism is still deeply entrenched, but quite frankly it's not all that different from ages past;  it's just better publicised.

There are deep societal divisions in the UK, whole sub-cultures gathering strength that seem unstoppable, and that's worrying

 

When were we ever as you describe? When was this time?

 

Perhaps the blessed one will sort it out when we are all levelled up.

[radfordred 6,284]

13 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I still feel the same..or worse

 

That’s crazy mate, make yourself ill, accept it, embrace it, time move on, lives to short, you might even sleep better.   

[PeverilPeril 3,288]

I worry about Boris being let loose on the Ukraine crisis? What is he hoping to achieve with the £88m and weapons training, while the Germans, French etc. being a little more patient and diplomatic? Is it a vainglorious attempt to regain respect at home and to be seen as a leader? Cosying up to the yanks? Deja vu? He can't face a crisis at home so off he goes to meddle somewhere else!

[Alpha 176]

We, as a belittled minor nation, our governments' appears drawn towards, as with PeverilPeril's comment, to meddle in other's national affairs. We are not only an insignficant world power, but poorly resourced, financially and militarily, to issue credible support to the Ukraine or any other politically beleaguered ally.

The UK has failed to learn where and where not to meddle as regards middle east or eastern European affairs.

More recently, The Boer War, WW1; Afganistan 1/2, Suez, Iraq, Cyprus, Afganistan 3, etc provide examples of the meddling we should have avoided rather than using such conflicts as a misguded way of bolstering a lost cause of national esteem.

[DJ360 6,733]

20 hours ago, Brew said:

Err, when was this Col? It sounds like a middle class, but misguided ideal. A concept for the those with rose-tinted glasses and never grew up in what is now euphemistically called an 'inner city area'. It's a hankering for a more genteel period where manners, tolerance and standards were… well actually non-existent!  (Et seq.)

 

Well Jim, that is a very effective demolition of an argument I wasn't making, or at least wasn't intending.  Ann Swabey seems to have understood me completely.

 

Of course all of those ills you describe existed, and still exist to a greater or lesser extent. But, in focussing on demonstrating that to be the case, you pretty much missed the real point I was making.  There were plenty of clues..so I'm surprised you missed it.

 

My post was a copy of one I put up on Facebook two years ago to coincide with Brexit, and was precisely aimed at the underwhelming  outcome of the Brexit vote, and the failure of any of those 'great and glorious benefits' to appear.  Of course they still haven't.  And they won't.

 

As well as pointing out the error of most of the assertions which were used to to blame the EU for issues which were more rooted in UK Govt. policy decisions, I was also bemoaning the shift in the Democratic Mandate.  I'll explain.  From the day we joined the EU, the democratic Mandate on Govt. was to pursue cooperation in trade, economics, social policy, education, scientific endeavour/research, human rights, workers rights and any number of other areas of common concern.  And of course we became part of a major Trade Bloc, with clout on the World Stage, as well as a broadly Democratic pluralist grouping, which is handy when your borders are adjacent to a Gangster states such as Russia, Belarus and others.

 

The Brexit vote, whether 'yer average' Brexiteer understood it or not..was to shift the Democratic Mandate away from cooperation and the extension of human rights etc.. to one of isolationaism, pettiness and a pretty much  blatant adoption of xenophobic and racist ideals, which are being played out in numerous ways.  Brexiteers cry 'foul' and blame the EU for our own miserable Govt's failure to properly conclude the exit strategy. Govt. continues to attempt to  hide obvious issues of trade. ..more failure.

We blame the French for asylum seekers/refugees etc, floating across the channel. Our Home Office and its appalling 'Boss'. ...the odious Priti Patel are now finally having to  confront Immigration, legal and otherwise, because they can no longer blame it all on the EU, even though most of it was never the EU's fault anyway. There was nothing, apart from a deliberate lack of funds and infrastructure, preventing us from controlling our own borders. But Patel is adopting a very hard line now, to applause from nobody except the usual suspects.

On the Home Front, and increasingly right wing and repressive Govt. is imposing anti democratic legislation on voting rights, on the power of the courts to defend democracy and on the right to protest.

 

That's what my post was about Jim.  I don't think I was far wide of the mark.

And meanwhile..we are all still waiting for those benefits of Brexit to appear.

 

 

[DJ360 6,733]

13 hours ago, Alpha said:

We, as a belittled minor nation, our governments' appears drawn towards, as with PeverilPeril's comment, to meddle in other's national affairs. We are not only an insignficant world power, but poorly resourced, financially and militarily, to issue credible support to the Ukraine or any other politically beleaguered ally.

The UK has failed to learn where and where not to meddle as regards middle east or eastern European affairs.

More recently, The Boer War, WW1; Afganistan 1/2, Suez, Iraq, Cyprus, Afganistan 3, etc provide examples of the meddling we should have avoided rather than using such conflicts as a misguded way of bolstering a lost cause of national esteem.

 

Not often I agree with you Alpha, but I  agree with most of that.  Serious Political analysts saw the decline of the British Empire from around 1900, as the USA became the increasingly dominant industrial/economic power.  We are no longer a major World Power and frankly, we need to be both economically and politically a part of Europe to stand a chance in a World increasingly dominated by China, against a collapsing USA.

 

I don't have a problem with us showing support for Ukraine, as it is a democracy of sorts, cf. Putin's repressive Gangster State.  Putin needs to be told in no uncertain terms that he cannot demand  the exclusion of Ukraine from  NATO if its democracy decides to apply for membership.

We should tell Putin that Nato will not be needed if he stops locking up/killing his opposition and operates a genuine democracy.

Of curse we'd be more likel;y to be heard as art of the EU.

[Brew 5,423]

On the contrary, Col, The first part of it was a preamble to your main critique. You were espousing about what the country has become, and how it has changed since the halcyon days when there was tolerance, fairness and unicorns  wandered free.

It reads like a requiem for the days pre-Brexit when we all got along famously before those nasty bar room tub thumpers upset the apple cart.

 

It has long been a favourite aphorism that the country is going to the dogs, except it's not. There is still much to commend living in the UK.

[DJ360 6,733]

Jim, I may have 'over egged' the bit about British Fair Play etc.,.. but you still haven't got the point of my post.  In the EU, we agreed, via a Democratic Mandate (somewhat grudgingly in some cases) to co-operation on many fronts. After the Brexit Vote, that Democratic Mandate shifted to the opposite, but it was 'sold' on a mythology of 'Little England', 'Taking Back Control'and bare faced lies about Laws etc..etc.. with a very unhealthy side order of Government Sanctioned and Approved'  Xenophobia etc.

My point was that despite Johnson declaring 'Brexit Dun', nothing changed, except the 'zeitgeist'.

2 years on nothing has changed for the better in ways attributable to Brexit and whilst it is true that the Pandemic has caused some of our economic problems.. many more are directly attributable to, at best..a failed implementation of Brexit..and at worst the failure of Brexit as an ambition.

 

[DJ360 6,733]

And in other news...

 

Whilst Johnson continues to assume his omnipotence, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary..we are all at least partly distracted from reality.

 

So. Govt. has 'written off' something like , I believe, £8.7Billion, wasted on PPE which never materialised, etc.  Yes Jim, I know they claim it was a 'Dog eat Dog' market at the time etc.. Blah. But really?

They've also written off a similar amount for fraudulently claimed ' Covid business support loans' etc.

 

And yet.. curiously, they are adamant that much of the money being proposed to support the poorest in society with energy bills.. 'Must Be Paid Back'

Says it all to me... 

 

And let's not even get into why the country which built the first commercially viable Nuclear Power Station, is now in hock to the World for energy imports, and the building of power stations.

 

 

[Brew 5,423]

48 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Jim, I may have 'over egged' the bit about British Fair Play etc.,.. but you still haven't got the point of my post.

I did  Col, and you are preaching to the choir, however you drew a comparison of the good old days with today's situation.

My point is that the mythical 'back then' scenario you described is the type of illusion that sold Brexit.

To make their ideas credible, they drew a picture of a land ruled and ruined by foreigners, which we both know never existed.

 

Brexit was so complex nobody knew the full ramifications or truly understood what leaving meant. After creating a simplistic image of a land fit for heroes, a narrow majority went for it, totally  ignoring the complicated counterarguments.

 

Johnson et al. gave them a solid image with a hefty dose of blinkered vision, Cameron, unseeable economic hypotheses.

[DJ360 6,733]

A friend came round the other evening and told me he doesn't like Johnson but also thought Starmer was a 'wrong 'un'...because he failed to 'prosecute Saville'.  I pointed out this was a lie on the part of Johnson and that in any case, people had been failing to prosecute Saville for decades.

 

At this point my mate said he didn't want to get into politics..which is what he says every time I pull him up on some cock and bull DM type rubbish he has picked up.  Thing is he's very gullible..and even more so with audio kit 'tweaks', which he always convinces himself make a 'night and day' difference.. until the next one comes along. But I digress, except to say that there are many like him..willing to believe anything to re-inforce their beleaguered view that they were right to vote not only for the Tories..but specifically for a proven liar as P.M.

 

So now Johnson has stated he has no intention of apologising for lying about Starmer. Unbelievable arrogance.

 

Next up he has raised another bunch of nobodies with far right views to ministerial and whip positions.  All nasty people who would support Johnson if he advocated eating babies.

 

Best laugh of all though 'Rees-Mogg' as 'Minister for Brexit Benefits'..which is frankly bloody hilarious..especially when  there are none...coupled with 'And Government Efficiency'.  WTF does that mean?

 

All governments use 'persuasive' language and their own interpretation of stats etc.. to gain support..but I have never known a Govt. so willing to openly and repeatedly lie,with a straight face..about every last thing.

We really are moving into the sort of absurdity spouted by 'Big Brother' in 1984. Just substitute 'Big Dog'

 

Quote

At the apex of the pyramid comes Big Brother. Big Brother is infallible and all-powerful. Every success, every achievement, every victory, every scientific discovery, all knowledge, all wisdom, all happiness, all virtue, are held to issue directly from his leadership and inspiration.

 

 

 

Quote

Oceanic society rests ultimately on the belief that Big Brother is omnipotent and that the Party is infallible. But since in reality Big Brother is not omnipotent and the party is not infallible, there is need for an unwearying, moment-to-moment flexibility in the treatment of facts.

 

It really is worrying that we do not have more mass protest against this bunch of crooks.

[Brew 5,423]

Although I tend to believe Starmer I really can't call Johnson a liar (in this case), nor can anyone else, we simply don't know. Your mate may well be naive, I don't know that either, but equally you are quick to judgement where Boris is concerned, and it's always in the negative, but are you always right?

 

There is food for thought here, I do though find it somewhat unusual that the head of the CPS was totally unaware of such a high profile case, or that a lower ranked official would take the decision without consultation. There is also evidence of a  circular Starmer sent to Chief Constables recommending no action in some 'sensitive cases' (like the Rochdale gang).

 

It's accepted he was not the reviewing lawyer in Saville's case, but did he really know nothing about it?

Even the Guardian are saying some of his decisions were questionable.

 

Starmer seems to be Teflon coated at the moment, beer and sarnies in an enclosed space was not against the law. Johnson drinking wine outdoors and clearly distanced was?

 

Those in the know or at least are more knowledgeable are being very circumspect in their language. The speaker did not say Johnson was wrong, only that words have consequences. The digital minister said Johnson was “not incorrect”, make of that what you will.

 

We can, at most, say we don't believe him, we cannot say (again in this instance), he's a liar.

 

Edit:

I've found a report, Starmer is the author, where he discusses Saville and even seeks advice from another legal source:

 

'In October 2012, in light of the more recent allegations of sexual offending by Jimmy Savile, I asked my Principal Legal Advisor, Alison Levitt QC, to examine the decisions taken by the CPS in relation to the four allegations made in 2007 and 2008 and advise me whether they were correct or not'.

 

'I accept the conclusions reached by Ms. Levitt QC and, in the interests of transparency and accountability, I have decided to publish her report in full. In doing so, I would like to take the opportunity to apologise for the shortcomings in the part played by the CPS in these cases'

 

[radfordred 6,284]

7 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Starmer was a 'wrong 'un'...because he failed to 'prosecute Saville

 

So Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Sir Jimmy "Peodo" Savile & the Rotherham grooming gangs, this needs to be reinvestigated.

[MargieH 7,613]

When I first read Orwell’s ‘1984’ decades ago, I never thought that it would ever apply to Britain!  But I was .  wrong…. Such a prophetic book!

[Rob.L 1,090]

55 minutes ago, radfordred said:

 

So Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Sir Jimmy "Peodo" Savile & the Rotherham grooming gangs, this needs to be reinvestigated.

It has been, and been found to be a load of conspiracy theorist b*llocks.

[Jill Sparrow 10,316]

I read Animal Farm at Manning.  From it came my adopted mantra: Four legs good, two legs bad!

 

I tried with Keep The Aspidistra Flying and The Road To Wigan Pier but gave up!

[MargieH 7,613]

Jill - but what about apes and birds?

only joking…

[Jill Sparrow 10,316]

...and insects, spiders, worms, centipedes...?

[MargieH 7,613]

Can’t count worms cos they’re legless  

[Brew 5,423]

As many are after a good night out...

[Jill Sparrow 10,316]

Chaetae....

[MargieH 7,613]

Jill, are bristles classed as legs?

[Jill Sparrow 10,316]

If they move you along...I suppose so!