Anything Political

[Gem 1,430]

At the risk of being shouted at...I think that pensioners who are 'wealthy' should pay for a television licence, also the idea that every pensioner should be paid a Christmas bonus. I remember Vince Cable saying he gave his to his grandchildren and many others gave theirs to a charity saying there was no alternative way to return it. A government spokesperson said it would be to expensive to sort out who was eligible and who wasn't.  If I have got any of my facts wrong....Sorry in advance

[Beekay 5,156]

I'll have yours if you don't want it Gem, ( or maybe your not old enough to get it yet).

[philmayfield 6,144]

‘Unto those that hath shall be given’. It says so in the Bible so it must be alright!

 

[Brew 5,421]

2 hours ago, Gem said:

At the risk of being shouted at...I think that pensioners who are 'wealthy' should pay for a television licence, also the idea that every pensioner should be paid a Christmas bonus. I remember Vince Cable saying he gave his to his grandchildren and many others gave theirs to a charity saying there was no alternative way to return it. A government spokesperson said it would be to expensive to sort out who was eligible and who wasn't.  If I have got any of my facts wrong....Sorry in advance

 

 I thought the Christmas bonus was only given to those who received a 'benefit', I wonder how Cable qualified?

 

https://www.gov.uk/christmas-bonus/eligibility

 

And no one is going to shout at you Gem, regardless of whether you're right or wrong

 

 

[Beekay 5,156]

Among the eligibility list is does say ' those in receipt of state pension'. So, maybe when Gem leaves school and old enough, she might get one. What's your views Brew?

[Brew 5,421]

2 hours ago, Beekay said:

those in receipt of state pension

I didn't see that... Should have paid more attention..  

[Beekay 5,156]

Es Nada Amigo!

[Al Duff 21]

19 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

I'd have thought the revenue from Whiskey would help a lot.. Scotland also has huge tourism revenue and potential though I'm really not up to speed on the rest of it.

 

 

I'd agree that it is a mistake to underestimate the capability and intelligence of the Scottish population.  I spent a lot of my Post Grad training in Scotland and found that both their education system and their respect for education was at a high level. 

 

I just think that long term petty 'nationalism' (on all sides ) is not helpful to anyone and needs to be clearly separated from local culture.

The desire for self-determination cannot be dismissed as petty nationalism. Scotland has a distinct culture, history, economy, educational system, language (or had), etc, etc. It has every right to be independent, if a clear majority wills it; and would remain England's best friend, I can assure you.

[Beekay 5,156]

Scotland would cope ok Al,  they've got Compo.

[Al Duff 21]

And whiskey...if it doesn't work out...

[Brew 5,421]

Petty nationalism is more the internal power politics between the various factions than tarring separatists with the same brush.

 

Economically there would be a huge downturn, an increase in taxes to cover the losses plus the increase in expenditure necessary. The sale of Whisky will not see a dramatic increase and tourism from England may well reduce rather than increase. What will change to increase international tourism - what can they do they are not doing already?

 

Many think they can re-join the EU, not going to happen, at least not for a very long time. There are at least ten separatist movement in the EU - something Brussels is desperate to keep the lid on.

 

 

[Gem 1,430]

Thank you Brew...I meant to say the Winter Fuel Allowance which goes to everyone born before 1956 regardless of income as long as they are in receipt of state pension. To me it seems that the money could be put to better use than being paid to millionaires, I did check again regarding my remark about Vince Cable.  I think I must be bored getting involved in a political Theme, not that anyone posting is boring.

[Brew 5,421]

It does seem a bit of an anomaly giving them the fuel bonus but when you think they pay 50%  income tax, don't you reckon  it's a bit churlish to exclude them from a few quid in return. They use no more and probably less of the public services yet pay a disproportionate amount in taxes...

 

If you're bored long may you remain so,          it's good to know how others see things, what they think etc... 

[DJ360 6,730]

4 hours ago, Al Duff said:

The desire for self-determination cannot be dismissed as petty nationalism. Scotland has a distinct culture, history, economy, educational system, language (or had), etc, etc. It has every right to be independent, if a clear majority wills it; and would remain England's best friend, I can assure you.

 

When I studied Politics.. one thing I came away with was that I discovered no answers..but learned to ask a better class of question..

It may well be that: ' It has every right to be independent, if a clear majority wills it' .. But it does not follow that Scotland and its people will be better off as a result.

 

As Johnson and his cronies have discovered.. it really isn't easy to break up even such a small (in Global Terms) area as the British Isles.. and it has created some real issues for the implementation of Brexit. (Whichever side you are on )  This is purely political and has very little to do with the cultural and traditional differences which exist within the British Isles and the UK.

 

It seems to me that 'petty nationalism' and cultural diversity tend to get confused...which is what I was trying to indicate above.  I did also say 'on all sides'.

 

Much of the cause of separatist movements World wide, is at worst the active suppression and at best the neglect, of 'local' culture and tradition.

We saw this in Scotland in the past with the banning of Tartans etc.  Within my memory a politician vowed to starve himself to death if the Welsh Language was not protected. The treatment of Ireland needs no rehearsal from me.

 

China is emerging as a classic example of the type, suppressing as it is Hong Kong, Tibet, Uighur Muslims etc.  This shows a real fear of any sort of non conformity on one level, and a desire to root out potential opposition on another..  eitherway a sign of insecurity.

 

We see issues in Spain with the Catalan separatist movement, also in many other countries.

 

I have no desire to deny anyone Self Determination, but it is rarely that simple.   If Scotland was an island, it would still need defence and other strong economic/political ties with someone.  Same applies to a post-Brexit England/Wales NI.  Thing is I don't believe anybody in the UK Govt is actively concerned with suppressing the differences in culture which exist within the UK and they are surely the most significant issues?

 

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

2 hours ago, Brew said:

Petty nationalism is more the internal power politics between the various factions than tarring separatists with the same brush.

 

I'm genuinely unsure what this sentence means
.  I think it might be agreeing with my stance?  A bit?  :)

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

27 minutes ago, Brew said:

yet pay a disproportionate amount in taxes...

 

'They' are generally liable for higher tax rates on income.  This is moderated by two factors, one conceptual... the other practical.

 

Conceptually.. what does 'disproportiionate' mean?  It's basically a value judgement.

 

Practically.. Many wealthy people may be liable for high percentage tax.. but the reality is that they find ways around much of it. A good accountant helps.

[DJ360 6,730]

55 minutes ago, Gem said:

I think I must be bored getting involved in a political Theme

 

Gem...

Our lives are ruled and determined by political action.  We should all be informed and engaged.

Thank you for your contribution.

[radfordred 6,284]

Independent England sounds better, get some walls up, high ones, use plenty of bricks. 

[Brew 5,421]

9 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I'm genuinely unsure what this sentence means
.  I think it might be agreeing with my stance?  A bit? 

 

Hmm, you're right it is an awkward sentence but yes, we are basically saying the same thing.

 

'Disproportionate' - adjective, something too large or too small compared to something else.  A disparity in size. Conceptual or not paying 50% tax when most pay 20% is disproportionate by any standard. True  good accountants help but not to the extent you think - the net result is the same.

 

Cultural diversity - what does that mean exactly?, is it dressing differently, speaking a different language, 'doing' things differently, rejecting change...?

Nationalism  separatism  etc, is nothing more than tribalism, a mawkish defence of "our tradition and culture", flag waving and tub thumping by the myopic for something  left behind long ago as society evolved. 

 

What is tradition?, what is culture? who decides, how far back do we look? 

 

Many will welcome independence without fully realising the implications - they should be careful what they wish for.

 

‘The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.’   

 

[philmayfield 6,144]

It’s only 45% and that’s for over £150,000 income. However at that amount you do forfeit your allowances.

[Brew 5,421]

9 minutes ago, philmayfield said:

It’s only 45% and that’s for over £150,000 income. However at that amount you do forfeit your allowances.

 

Apologies, you are correct and personal allowances start to reduce over 100k. 

 

Only a rich man could say "it's only 45%"     

[philmayfield 6,144]

I’m just saying ‘only’ 45% compared to 50%. 

[DJ360 6,730]

I copied this in from the Coronavirus thread.   Of course the Coronavirus is a political issue.  It is political at the most basic level in that it concerns something which affects society economically, socially etc.  It is also party political re: the Govt. handling of it.. and internationally political for many obvious reasons.

I was uncomfortable with some of the views expressed which is why I said I'd comment no further outside of this thread because it could only lead to political debate.

 

However.. I really don't understand this post from Commo.

 

 

Quote

Commo

Posted 8 hours ago

I cannot believe the closed minds and biased views on here. As with the political thread, will the mods please make this thread only available when logged in so that those of us with a more questioning mind and sense of reason no longer are subjected to such offensive material.

 

What I read prior to that were a series of shades of opinion on the virus, on Govt. responses and then suddenly a whole lot of stuff with the usual confusion between imigration, migration and refugees.

 

Closed minds?    Whose are they then?

 

'biased views'?  Are they ones we disagree with?

 

' those of us with a more questioning mind and sense of reason'    Is that only some of us?

 

'offensive material'  Who is deciding what is offensive and who should be offended?

 

I had to look up 'The Kalergi Plan'.  I'd never heard of it before.  Here is how Wikipaedia describes it.

 

Quote

The Kalergi Plan (Italian: Piano Kalergi), or sometimes called the Coudenhove-Kalergi Conspiracy,^[1] is a far-right,^[2] anti-semitic, white nationalist conspiracy theory,^[3] which states that a plot to mix white Europeans with other races via immigration was constructed by Austrian-Japanese politician Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi and promoted in aristocratic European social circles.^[4] The conspiracy theory is most often associated with European groups and parties, but it has also spread to North American politics.^[5]

Origins

Austrian writer and neo-Nazi Gerd Honsik wrote about the subject in his book Kalergi Plan (2005).^[6] Investigative newspaper Linkiesta have described the Kalergi plan as a hoax which is comparable to the anti-semitic fabrication The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.^[7]

Reception

The SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) denotes that the Kalergi plan is a distinctly European way of pushing the narrative of white genocide on the continent, with white nationalists quoting Coudenhove-Kalergi's writings out of context in order to assert that the European Union's immigration policies were insidious plots that were hatched decades ago in order to destroy white people.^[8] Hope Not Hate, an anti-racism advocacy group, has described it as a racist conspiracy theory, which alleges that Coudenhove-Kalergi intended to influence Europe's policies on immigration in order to create a "populace devoid of identity" which would then supposedly be ruled by a Jewish elite.^[9]

In his 2018 novel Middle England, author Jonathan Coe satirizes the concept with his conspiracy theorist character Peter Stopes.^[10]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

On 7/12/2020 at 12:37 PM, Brew said:

'Disproportionate' - adjective, something too large or too small compared to something else.  A disparity in size. Conceptual or not paying 50% tax when most pay 20% is disproportionate by any standard. True  good accountants help but not to the extent you think - the net result is the same.

 

Obviously, being poverty stricken.. I can't speak from experience.. but as I understand it, higher earners pay exactly tha same as everyone else up to a certain level.  50% tax is only payed on that portion of income above a certain figure.  In other words only after the payer has already pocketed more than most earn.  I find it difficult to sympathise.

 

[Brew 5,421]

I didn't say higher tax payers should have any sympathy but as you point out they have already paid the same as everyone else (their fair share?). Due to hard work or just dumb luck they  become successful - and then punished for being so by paying a disproportionate amount of tax.