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10 minutes ago, catfan said:

 

Herald Sun is an Australian Populist newspaper, seemingly similar to our own dear Sun.. which you won't find in Liverpool.

 

I've looked at a lot of stuff about Mandela.  I agree he was no saint in the early days, but then if you were a black Native South African, denied a vote, told where you could go, who you could associate with, where you could live in your own country and who you could marry..  What would you do?

 

Here's another view of Mandela.  There are loads online:

 

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/12/05/world/africa/Mandela-Timeline.html#/#time216_6691

 

But surely the key point is that if you insist on creating a society where most of the population has no rights.. your are sowing the wind, and will reap the whirlwind?

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I think today and the Multicultural society we live in, ''Humour'' is the best way of bringing people together,, some old words we used are now 'Taboo' and i think quite rightly,,even though back in the day they were mostly used without malicious intent.......ive never used the N' word think that was also always wrong,, i think the old West indians i worked with had great humour,,still see a few of them today,,and i'm always pleased to see em,,they 'Banter with the best..........one who is my age i often see in Bulwell...always greets me with ''hey white boy how you doing''  love it.

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Funny...i have not one photo of my Mam when she was a kid...or her Sisters and  my Grandma. Too poor , i was told..but on my Dads side..loads of the Mansfield shop his Dad owned..and times in the 1930's in Woodford. 

I have pictures of my Dads mum on Parliament St.in the 40's and of the Castle and some RAF ones...that i am sure contravened war time.

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A bloke I know who I always see in Bulwell is a black fella Henry, a smashing bloke ! real sense of humour, when I see him sat on a bench he will always say to me with outstretched hand "Anything for the poor" !

We were taught to address a West Indian as "Coloured", not anymore, the correct way these days is to say "Black". That word was frowned upon & considered racist in my childhood.

Suppose this is down to the "Snowflake" ideology !

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Very simplistic Col but both of us know the colonisation of South Africa was much more complicated than that.

 

The Dutch were the first to go there to establish a stop over and replenishment site for the Dutch East India Company 1652 what was to become Cape Colony. We followed and took over 1795 and from there until the early 20th century it changed hands several time.

 

The Act of Segregation was introduce in 1909 by the first prime minister General Botha, don't sound very English do he.

 

Wrong I agree but two wrongs do not make a right and both Gandhi and later Mandela both did wrong.

 

Me I hate and despise the far right as much as the far left they as bad as each other, just look at what has happened to what used to be the working mans party (Labour) now a bunch of racist anti Semites.

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I can't let this drop.  We English are constantly ostracised for colonisation, but what about our invaders. The Romans, Vikings and the Normans. We're always told that their presence here made us what we are today  !

Also, over the last 500 years, what about the French,  Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, German and Scandinavian colonists ?

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The first slave traders were arabs anyone asking them for an apology Thats about as likely as an animal rights demo outside a hal hal butchers I dont recall africans starving during the empire  There wasnt a mass exodus back to Africa when slavery ended in the USA and it was an englishman who stopped it No statues to him of course Thats not PC

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Statue of William Wilberforce in Hull.  I believe there are many others.

 

307f4e92-9571-4ab9-9127-2080f0100ca1.jpg

 

 

 

And of course there wasnt a mass exodus by then the slaves were all US born, dependent upon their former 'masters' for work and still treated like shit...  as many still are. Some founded Liberia though.

 

 

 

 

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They all benefit from British systems of education, law, hygiene, medical systems, farming, roads. Language too

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31 minutes ago, meeowed said:

The first slave traders were arabs anyone asking them for an apology Thats about as likely as an animal rights demo outside a hal hal butchers I dont recall africans starving during the empire  There wasnt a mass exodus back to Africa when slavery ended in the USA and it was an englishman who stopped it No statues to him of course Thats not PC

 

Which statue of William Wilberforce doesn’t exist? The one outside his birthplace in Hull or the one in Westminster Abbey?

 

 

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If by political correctness you mean the sheep that follow the doctrine dictated by a few and are unable or unwilling to think and decide for themselves then I agree with you. Where I disagree is that it is not only Marxist but it is used by the extremes of all sides. They are full of themselves and very vocal in a mob, but try and discuss it with them on a one to one basis, they wont, they haven't been told what to say or think.

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1 hour ago, NewBasfordlad said:

Very simplistic Col but both of us know the colonisation of South Africa was much more complicated than that.

 

The Dutch were the first to go there to establish a stop over and replenishment site for the Dutch East India Company 1652 what was to become Cape Colony. We followed and took over 1795 and from there until the early 20th century it changed hands several time.

 

The Act of Segregation was introduce in 1909 by the first prime minister General Botha, don't sound very English do he.

 

Wrong I agree but two wrongs do not make a right and both Gandhi and later Mandela both did wrong.

 

Me I hate and despise the far right as much as the far left they as bad as each other, just look at what has happened to what used to be the working mans party (Labour) now a bunch of racist anti Semites.

 

You were doing so well till the anti Semites bit.  :)

 

Whatever your opinion of Corbyn, both know that the Establishment cabal of Tories/their Corporate backers, the assorted crooks who benefit from Govt. out sourcing an the media all fear Corbyn.He will cost them as they are forced to pay their taxes and stop bleeding the state for every penny they can steal. The anti Semitism issue is a concereted campaign by the establishment to smear him.  He's about as anti Semitic as Moses.  He's not handling it well, but neither he nor his party are anti-semitic.

 

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Impressed by your mention of Liberia Col..........and its Slavery roots,

I love History and Geography always have done,, once interviewed a bloke in Manchester,took an instant dislike to him,,first he sat sideways not looking me in the eye......then he answered his phone while i was talking to him,obviously he stood no chance of getting a job with me.,but i carried on and asked him where he was from,

Liberia he said ,with contempt in his voice,adding you would'nt know even where it is''........red rag to a Bull now, told him the Capital (monrovia) when it was formed by ex slaves from USA,,Its Population and generally its History,,His mouth dropped open and he did'nt know what to say,,........i then enlightened him saying ''don't imagine from the English people you've already obviously met that we know nothing about other peoples,Countries and Histories,,and you my friend are one of the worst people i've ever interviewed, now go away and think about what you have learned today................felt great after..........lol

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Col I don't know if Corbyn is an anti-Semitic, I hope not, but what I do know is he has made some very half-hearted denials

 

Remember the London mural depicting the hook nosed Jews controlling the world? and the praise he gave it?

When challenged that it was anti-Semitic Corbyn’s  defence was that he was supporting free speech.

He quickly gave this up when it was pointed out that on another occasion he said that respecting other communities is more important than free speech (this was in 2006).

 

His second defence was that he just didn't look at the mural very carefully. Really? 

 

You were doing quite well too Col until you launched into hyperbole:

 

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

Whatever your opinion of Corbyn, both know that the Establishment cabal of Tories/their Corporate backers, the assorted crooks who benefit from Govt. out sourcing an the media all fear Corbyn.He will cost them as they are forced to pay their taxes and stop bleeding the state for every penny they can steal

 

I read your last sentence as a comment on the recent Amazon news. The BBC in interviews tried their damnedest to get someone to condemn Amazon but all said the same. 

They have paid their dues, you don't like it - change the law.

 

I think we as ordinary citizens have more to fear than any corporation from Corbyn and his far left Leninist supporters in Momentum.

 

 

 

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Col, Corbyn gives every impression of being highly anti semetic you may not like the fact but it stares most people in the face.

 

As to large corporations stealing tax money that that could be seen as slander they do not steal they play by the rules as they are. Now these rules may well need changing but at this time they are the rules.

 

I have been a tax payer all my life and at 72 am still paying taxes but as a self employed person different rules apply to me rather than PAYE and I have no hesitation in telling the world I will only pay what I have to. Not a penny more till I see my taxes spent wisely and even then it's doubtful.

 

Finally I for one am very proud of what the British achieved around the world and will not judge yesterday thoughts and action by todays standards. Yes we conquered nations because we were better at warfare but once conquered we did an immense amount of good around the globe.

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I've just come in after an evening of highly irresponsible boozing and carousing.  I shall resume this fascinating discussion tomorrow.

 

Night all.  :)

 

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When I said there were no statues to wilberforce I meant to convey his lack of recognition by the african nations  After all you would think he would be revered for his work on the abolition of slavery but no they prefer a man who was prepared to kill and maim people for his political ambitions My grandfather gave his life in 1918 fighting for freedom that includes freedom of speech I dont mind anyone disagreeing with me thats their right to express an opinion  Political correctness tries to deny that right  Tommy robinson shows how far a so called democratic government is prepared to go to stifle freedom of speech  the arrest trial and imprisonment was found to be illegal by the appeal judge He was reading from a document already in the public domain and yet he was convicted of contempt and a press embargo placed on reporters Then you have the manchester bomber openly swearing at the judge in court clearly contempt received no penalty  There is little point in voting these days they are all equally corrupt and global companies rule the world today look how little tax they pay they have the power to destroy a countries economy   meeowed

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Re Ian's last post. I went to Quebec House, the National Trust property a couple of years ago. I think Wolfe may have had only one cannon, but it was so strategically placed on high ground, that it couldn't be damaged. Also, I believe we had better musket balls too.

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Are we to suppose that Corbyns well documented support for the ira is all an establishment plot to discredit him as are his 'alleged' anti Semitic views.

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18 hours ago, FLY2 said:

I can't let this drop.  We English are constantly ostracised for colonisation, but what about our invaders. The Romans, Vikings and the Normans. We're always told that their presence here made us what we are today  !

Also, over the last 500 years, what about the French,  Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, German and Scandinavian colonists ?

 

Fly, I don't think anybody here is singling out England, or Britain for special condemnation.  Conquest and colonisation were the normal way of conducting geo -politics from almost the dawn of time and I don't believe we Brits were any better or worse than anybody else overall.  It is true that many of our former colonies continued to adopt similar education systems and so on, but many have been rather less successful at achieving a working democracy  after independence against a background of tribal and other political forces which work against it.  A similar 'post colonial' pattern is evident in South America, with continuing instability, often made worse by interference from the current crop of 'Top Nations' especially the USA.

 

We also need to be under no illusions.  We mainly went to these places following trade and the exploitation of natural resources, or to control militarily strategic areas.  Our 'civilising' influence was largely an excuse for this.

 

 A few who went out to these places were genuine missionaries who honestly believed that they could 'improve' and 'civilise' the 'natives', especially by conversion to some form of  Christianity.  The problem with that of course is that they failed to recognise that the 'natives' already had their own civilisation.  Possibly very different to ours but a civilisation nonetheless and in some cases older than ours.  The Ashanti and the Zulus spring to mind, not to mention the ancient civilisations in India and China. In the scheme of things, our influence in these places can be seen as a rather short lived 'blip' on their timeline.

 

It is also plainly evident that all empires follow the same pattern.  They begin, they expand by conquest until they become over extended and the people conquered become more and more discontented.  Then it all goes into reverse, but often leaving behind damaged, distorted and disrupted societies and political systems.  This is not about blaming people.  It is just about what happens.  The cycle also seems to be getting shorter over time.  Empires don't last as long as they used to.  Technology and improved communications I guess, but also maybe an increasingly desperate scramble for control of the World's diminishing resources. 

 

The Romans left Britain weak and open to colonisation by Angles, Saxons, and numerous other peoples from Northern Europe and Scandinavia.  We left behind similarly unstable and often artificial states, created more for our convenience than those of the 'natives'.  The 'Partition' of India must surely be one of the most damaging and long lasting consequences of crass interference in a country whose various loyalties were not properly understood or addressed.  I think it's generally recognised that giving some British Lawyer a pen and a map and telling him to divide up a continent, was not very bright, and could be seen as callous indifference. 'It's not ours any more.. Just 'divvy' it up and lets get out.."

 

  http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/partition1947_01.shtml

 

Britain, France, the US and no doubt others are largely responsible for the instability and chaos in the Middle East.  I'm not going into details here, but I think it's pretty plain.

 

Since WW2, empires seem to be built more via economic influence than by actual war, though most major powers aren't averse to the odd crackdown on any 'troublesome' locals... including ones installed by them who get 'above their station'.

 

The latest trend seems to be 'cyber war'.  I don't have much knowledge, but it does seem to be a rapidly developing aspect of geo-politics.

 

Coming back to South Africa.  The place was fully independent of the UK from the 1930s I think, but again, we left behind a mess.  Domination of the indiginous black population by a very repressive white regime which turned 'segregation' into 'apartheid' and was always going to end in tears.  You cannot suppress a whole people, tell them what they can do, where they can go, who they can associate with, who they can marry and so on ..and accept them to lie down and take it.  Would you?

 

Col

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5 hours ago, meeowed said:

When I said there were no statues to wilberforce I meant to convey his lack of recognition by the african nations  After all you would think he would be revered for his work on the abolition of slavery but no they prefer a man who was prepared to kill and maim people for his political ambitions My grandfather gave his life in 1918 fighting for freedom that includes freedom of speech I dont mind anyone disagreeing with me thats their right to express an opinion  Political correctness tries to deny that right  Tommy robinson shows how far a so called democratic government is prepared to go to stifle freedom of speech  the arrest trial and imprisonment was found to be illegal by the appeal judge He was reading from a document already in the public domain and yet he was convicted of contempt and a press embargo placed on reporters Then you have the manchester bomber openly swearing at the judge in court clearly contempt received no penalty  There is little point in voting these days they are all equally corrupt and global companies rule the world today look how little tax they pay they have the power to destroy a countries economy   meeowed

 

  Wilberforce was instrumental in ending the slave trade from Africa to North America and the Carribean. in the 19th Century.

 

That has nothing directly to do with the situation in South Africa, which developed in the 20th Century under a very repressive White regime, largely dominated by the descendents of Boer settlers I believe, which oppressed the indiginous Black population until the 1980s.  There's a common thread, in that whites were oppressing blacks, but otherwise it was different situation.

 

Political Correctness has little to do with freedom of speech.  And freedom of speech in this country does not extend to a right to preach hate, racism, discrimination etc., or to incite violence, racism, religious persecution etc.

 

Tommy Robinson is a dangerous idiot, who has NEVER been improsoned for his views.  He has been imprisoned for assorted crimes, but most recently for contempt of court.  He was disrupting, and potentially collapsing the trial of a group of alleged Child Abusers, just to publicise his own idiotic and confused politics.  How would you feel if your child was one of the victims of abuse and Tommy (Yaxley-Lennon) Robinson had succeeded in causing acquittal or a mis-trial?

 

If you take the trouble to read this.. you will see that Yaxley-Lennon makes different announcements and statements over tiime, to justify himself .  He has no consistent message, or logic to his arguments, apart from a genrally anti immigrant, and especially anti-Muslim stance.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)

 

I don't know which Manchester Bomber you mean.  The only one I've heard of blew himself apart.

 

I agree wiith some of your last sentence.. but what has it to do with the rest of your post?

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3 hours ago, letsavagoo said:

Are we to suppose that Corbyns well documented support for the ira is all an establishment plot to discredit him as are his 'alleged' anti Semitic views.

 

Corbyn always supported the idea of a United Ireland. He is entitled to that view. He is essentially a pragmatist who sees that conflict must always eventually be resolved by discussion.  Corbyn has never denied meeting with Sinn Fein and others., but has always stated his condemnation of violence 'on all sides'.

 

Whilst no sane person, IMHO, would support the indiscrimnate bombing and killing of innocent people, I thnk we have to recognnise that elements of the British Army and very probsably the Security Services, weren't exactly 'snow white' either.

 

I think it is also common knowledge that the British Government also had channels of communication to Sinn Fein, the IRA and others as a precursor to talks which eventually led to the relatively peaceful situation which exists now.

 

People will always pick and choose which bits of all that to emphasise, in order to suit their own narrative.

 

Personally, I'm hovering somewhere between a 'United' Ireland and a 'Happy,Peaceful' Ireland, but overall the history of Ireland since partition is just another example ( Like partition in India and other 'imposed' or 'artificial' states created around the World by the dominant power at the time..) ..of what happens when politicians impose 'solutions'.

 

This is a good read: 

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyn-on-northern-ireland

 

I'm going into the garden to catch some rays now.  anti Semitism later.

 

 

Col

 

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