Anything Political

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

7 hours ago, DJ360 said:

John Christie. Killed 8+ and also showed up British 'justice' when Timothy Evans was hanged for his crimes.

I wouldn't be too sure about that one. In recent years, evidence has emerged to indicate that Evans was guilty. Dr Jonathan Oates' excellent book John Christie of 10 Rillington Place is meticulously researched and far less biased than Ludovic Kennedy's earlier book on the subject. Kennedy was startlingly prejudiced against Christie as any reader of the book will soon detect. However, even Evans' own mother admitted she didn't know whether her son was guilty or not and her actions after his execution are very indicative of someone who thought he was a murderer.  Christie, of course, was a serial killer but, if we are being fair, it is not acceptable to blame him for two murders he almost certainly did not commit. Kennedy, it must be remembered, wrote his book with a political motive: the abolition of capital punishment and he was spurred on by the Derby lawyer, Eddowes, a man whose obsessions with the odd corners of crime is, at times, risible (the exhumation of Lee Harvey Oswald, for instance).  Evans was intellectually challenged, it is true, but he was also a thief, a pathological liar, a violent drunk and a lousy husband and father. Inside 10 Rillington Place, written in recent years by Beryl Evans' youngest brother, Peter Mylton-Thorley, sheds new and very interesting light on his sister's abusive marriage, including her fears that her husband would kill her, and is well worth a read.

 

I once accepted Evans' innocence but I have changed my mind.

[letsavagoo 963]

9 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

This is getting messy as I have posted on the ‘news flash’ thread. I can see where it’s gone but are these terrible murders political. Perhaps so but as many comments are in the news flash thread would it not make sense to keep it there and forgive any political content there.

[DJ360 6,730]

On 6/15/2023 at 8:26 AM, Jill Sparrow said:

I wouldn't be too sure about that one. In recent years, evidence has emerged to indicate that Evans was guilty. Dr Jonathan Oates' excellent book John Christie of 10 Rillington Place is meticulously researched and far less biased than Ludovic Kennedy's earlier book on the subject.

 

That's interesting Jill. I've only seen the 'classic' film with Richard Attenborough.  I purposely didn't watch the recent TV serial, because I find the whole story both distressing and depressing. I'll have to try to find time to read the book you point to.

However, if Evans was guilty of those two murders, it doesn't change the 'body count' of murders by White British killers, or diminish the point I made.

[DJ360 6,730]

Enough to catch up on as it is, so re: The Death Penalty.  I'm pretty much in agreement with PhilMayfield. Its deterrent value is dubious and non existent in the case of 'Suicide' terrorists or extremely agitated mentally ill people. It cannot bring back victims.

I'm not even convinced that modern Forensic tools etc., are sufficiently foolproof to 'nail' a perpetrator in all cases. We all leave an increasingly detectable 'trail' wherever we go, and I saw an interesting TV prog recently which highlighted the way that DNA evidence is still subject to correct interpretation to avoid mistakes.

 

Finally, I'd suggest that those in favour of the Death Penalty should examine their own willingness to pull the lever, switch, trigger, or whatever.

[DJ360 6,730]

Just a 'quickie' on the Johnson Saga which I couldn't resist lifting from another site.

 

Quote

Johnson joins the Mail. Well, he could have been lying in The Sun...

 

 

And:

 

Oops.

 

Quote

Boris Johnson’s attitude towards the rules is continuing in his usual manner, if this morning’s reports (see 9.24am) that he is to join the Daily Mail as its “erudite new columnist” said to be on a “very high six-figure sum” are accurate.

Until September 2024, Johnson is required under government rules to seek advice from the advisory committee on business appointments (Acoba) before taking up any new roles. But this morning, Acoba told the Guardian that they have not received an application from the former prime minister and will be writing to him on the matter.

 

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/jobs-after-government-rules

[letsavagoo 963]

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Enough to catch up on as it is, so re: The Death Penalty.  I'm pretty much in agreement with PhilMayfield. Its deterrent value is dubious and non existent in the case of 'Suicide' terrorists or extremely agitated mentally ill people. It cannot bring back victims.

I'm not even convinced that modern Forensic tools etc., are sufficiently foolproof to 'nail' a perpetrator in all cases. We all leave an increasingly detectable 'trail' wherever we go, and I saw an interesting TV prog recently which highlighted the way that DNA evidence is still subject to correct interpretation to avoid mistakes.

 

Finally, I'd suggest that those in favour of the Death Penalty should examine their own willingness to pull the lever, switch, trigger, or whatever.

It is a totally pointless exercise debating the death penalty as it will never happen here. I personally wold like to see the death penalty for certain offenders. The likes of Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Brady, Donald Nelson etc.

Judges now seem to have difficulty sentencing even the most abhorrent offenders to prison at all so forget any death penalty. Colin Pitchfork is due to be released I note and if it were my granddaughters he’d raped and murdered, yes, I’d pull the lever for the long drop. In fact I make it a short drop as that’s slower.

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I've only seen the 'classic' film with Richard Attenborough.  I purposely didn't watch the recent TV serial, because I find the whole story both distressing and depressing.

Richard Attenborough only accepted the part because he had the same political agenda as Ludovic Kennedy: the abolition of the death penalty. The 1971 film which was, gruesomely, filmed in Rillington Place immediately before it was demolished claimed, in its opening credits, to be based on Kennedy's book and he was a consultant to the director.  Actually, the film deviated wildly from the book and the book's accuracy is highly questionable.

 

The TV adaptation of a few years ago I didn't watch but a colleague, knowing of my interest in the case, regaled me with its portrayed events each day after it was broadcast.  The only disturbing thing about it was the number of character defamations presented as facts. For instance, Ethel Christie operating as an abortionist. Apparently, when you're dead, people can slander you with impunity. Ethel wasn't an angel but she certainly wasn't an abortionist.

 

I have always been against capital punishment for the simple reason that there is usually always a certain degree of doubt, despite what the jury may find. I've always been against abortion, too, because I believe it is wrong to kill. There will always be people, like the late Paul Foot, who seem to think that no one is ever guilty of anything. As the late and much reviled Valerie Storie said, no one wants to believe that their son is a murderer but being in denial of it doesn't change the truth.

[Dark Angel 138]

@Jill Sparrow :  interestingly I remember reading a book a while ago, in which Christie eventually claimed responsibility for Beryl Evans death, but not the baby, he never acknowledged involvement in her disappearance.

 

 Also, wrong thread, but I have the same affliction as your sister.

[Dark Angel 138]

@DJ360: with your evangelical zeal for politics, how do you know you are right?

 

Have you ever considered you may not be correct in all matters.

 

In your tour of recent history of serious crime, you seem selective in your lists, therefore thus so hence amplifying your argument.

 

As regards immigration, the demographics of this country are being altered.

Labour would be worse, several of their MP’s helped prevent a plane returning some near do wells back to their own country. One of these has since committed a murder.

 

 The leader of the Labour Party has difficulties in identifying a woman.

 

We are doomed! doomed!

[Alpha 176]

A British version of Sharia Law would be useful; carry a knife fingers off, using a knife or burglary hand off, rape penis off, murder head off, brutal assault on children and the elderly crushed hands.

Any offence of a criminal assault removes any benefit or other right to assistance. Prison sentance serves full time.

In prison, no 'anything'. Over crowding, put up old military bell tents for them to serve their time in or use disused coal mines.

 

No more parole boards or probation service. Once in stay in!

 

No more lip-spittling do gooders and fawning humanists. Then we can start to get back to normal.

 

 

 

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

My word, you'd have got on well with my mother, @Alpha  the only difference being that repeat offenders had their legs off so they couldn't go out.  I used to live in dread of her receiving a jury summons but, when she was in her 70s, receive one she did. At the time, she was due to have cataract surgery and I wrote to the court explaining that she could not see well enough to attend. She was excused and they didn't call her again. Phew! Mind you, she was very miffed about it.

 

My mother was the kindest, most charitable person you could wish to meet but when it came to crime she had a predisposition to be the next Judge Jeffreys!

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

@Dark AngelYou are correct in that after repeated denials and claims that he couldn't remember, Christie did admit that he'd killed Beryl Evans. His actual comment was, "The more, the merrier!" This is covered in Kennedy's book. However, the 'admission' was extracted from Christie by a psychiatrist who questioned him repeatedly in a fashion that would be considered inappropriate today.  After Christie's trial and conviction, he was transferred from Brixton Prison, where he'd been held on remand and where the psychiatrist had been permitted to question him, to Pentonville Prison where his execution would take place.  The psychiatrist later stated that he was assured of continued access to Christie in Pentonville but was later informed that access was denied. The psychiatrist was livid, stating that he was certain he could have "got Christie to confess to the murder of Geraldine" had he been allowed sufficient time and access to the prisoner.  Sounds dodgy to me.

 

In his book, Kennedy portrays Christie as a bully and a man who liked to intimidate children. In fact, the memories of those children (now elderly people) who lived in Rillington Place during the 1940s and early 50s concur that Christie was very kind to them, bought them sweets, ice cream and chatted to them about school, etc. He always said that he would have liked a family of his own as he loved children and animals.  

 

Christie never admitted to Geraldine's murder but Evans did. During his time on remand at Brixton Prison, he was assaulted by a fellow prisoner. His injuries required treatment in the prison infirmary. The fellow prisoner was serving a sentence for fraud and was a hardened criminal. His wife had just given birth to a child whom he was not able to see. During a discussion among the prisoners about babies. Evans suddenly stated that he couldn't stand the sound of babies screaming and that was the reason why he strangled Geraldine, because she wouldn't stop screaming.  The chap serving time for fraud was so incensed that he punched Evans repeatedly, putting him in hospital. The prisoner who assaulted him was questioned by the prison governor and the incident was officially logged. The man was given loss of privileges as a result.  This would seem to shed a totally different light on Evans and those who think he was innocent.

[mary1947 2,083]

Alpha  You mention a British Version os Sharia Law?

 

Should we go back to sending kids up chimmneys?

Have mobile Gas ovens, madam guillotine?

ect, ect, ecr,

 

Must addmit I don't know the answer but Sharia Law what if you chopped something off   fingers, toes, other bits and then find that person is not Guilty.  How would you feel?

[DJ360 6,730]

On 6/16/2023 at 4:46 PM, letsavagoo said:

Judges now seem to have difficulty sentencing even the most abhorrent offenders to prison at all so forget any death penalty.

 

Not a strong argument.

Levi Bellfield. Two whole life sentences.

Sutcliffe, Brady, and others died in prison. Ian Simms, who murdered Helen McCourt in my sometime local pub, spent 30 plus years in prison and I for one would not have let him out, since he refused to reveal the whereabouts of her body. He is reported to have died shortly after release on license.

Numerous others have 'whole life' sentences.

[DJ360 6,730]

18 hours ago, Dark Angel said:

@DJ360: with your evangelical zeal for politics, how do you know you are right?

 

I don't argue that I'm right, I argue that the known and verifiable facts point to my analysis of whatever situation, issue etc., being valid.

We all have opinions, but opinions not supported by facts are meaningless.

 

18 hours ago, Dark Angel said:

Have you ever considered you may not be correct in all matters.

 

That's like asking when 'When did you stop beating your wife?' I don't comment on 'all matters' and when shown to be factually incorrect, I own up.

 

18 hours ago, Dark Angel said:

In your tour of recent history of serious crime, you seem selective in your lists, therefore thus so hence amplifying your argument.

 

How do you arrive at that conclusion?  I'm countering the basic premise that somehow 'immigrants' are inherently more dangerous. I'm using evidence to argue a point. Can you produce equally powerful and verifiable evidence to prove me wrong? How many mass shootings have there been by immigrants? My evidence is generally gleaned from Google/Wikipedia etc.

 

How many 'immigrant' serial killers can you name?  I included the only one I could find... Did you miss that?

 

Over to you...

 

18 hours ago, Dark Angel said:

As regards immigration, the demographics of this country are being altered.

 

Of course they are. Just as they have been since the dawn of time. Vikings, Angles, Romans, Normans, Hugenots,  etc.,etc.

 

18 hours ago, Dark Angel said:

Labour would be worse,

 

You cannot know that. What a misguided or misinformed few Labour MPs, along with other activists, did is neither here nor there. How many Tory MPs are implicated in creating our current immigration problems?

 

I can argue with some force that you are attempting to extrapolate from a sample of one, to condemn many.

 

The current problems with immigration in the UK are a result of two main 'drivers'. 1. Mass migration from poverty, war, oppression etc., often from countries damaged by long term 'Western' economic exploitation and interference. 2. Long term failure to establish effective systems of immigration control, asylum, etc.  For the last 13 years, that has been 'down to' the Tories.

It is also obvious that the present Govt. is deliberately 'hyping' one emotive 'populist' issue, i.e. immigration, in order to deflect attention from it's many failings over Housing, Health, Inflation, Transport, Employment etc.,. etc. You cannot know that what a future Govt, Labour or otherwise, will do. You can only analyse what the present and previous Govts have done.

 

18 hours ago, Dark Angel said:

The leader of the Labour Party has difficulties in identifying a woman.

 

That is a deliberately exaggerated and simplified depiction of what happened. I'm no fan of Starmer but I see that as a muddle over the technical and legal definitions. I doubt I'd do any better.  Would you?

 

[DJ360 6,730]

17 hours ago, Alpha said:

Then we can start to get back to normal.

 

I'm intrigued as to where your 'normal' might be.

[letsavagoo 963]

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

Not a strong argument.

Levi Bellfield. Two whole life sentences.

Sutcliffe, Brady, and others died in prison. Ian Simms, who murdered Helen McCourt in my sometime local pub, spent 30 plus years in prison and I for one would not have let him out, since he refused to reveal the whereabouts of her body. He is reported to have died shortly after release on license.

Numerous others have 'whole life' sentences.

A strong argument for what. Im not trying to put up an argument as we will never in the foreseeable future, ever get a return of the death penalty. Many offences that would have 20 or 30 years ago got a very lengthy prison sentence are served with derisory sentences of a few years. Knife crime, rapist etc can be out in 18 months. A rapist was recently given no prison time at all. There will always be exceptions and Sutcliffe, Brady and those to come in the future who can never be released. In those instances the cost of keeping them incarcerated for life is colosal. Those I’d hang. Why not. Killing them wont undo what ever they’ve done but it will save a lot of money.

I see some deranged women is set to marry Belfield. How lovely for him. 
Mass shootings in the uk are a very rare occurrence. Not a strong argument from you there. 

There are a proportion of illegal immigrants coming in on the boats who are members of organised crime groups and are here specifically for criminal activity.  These are mainly but not exclusively the Albanians and Baltic areas. What is concerning is many young men, and they are mainly men, coming here from war torn areas. Iran, Iraq Egypt etc. They are from different cultures where murder, violence war is part of normal life. They face resentment and hostility, have nothing to do, no women or work or anything to occupy their time. Ripe for radicalisation. Problems will come, of that I’m certain. And it’s because of their background, NOT ethnicity.

I can see that many of these people are seeking a better life but it seems that the uk are taking a disproportionate number which is simply unsustainable. The French coastguards happily meeting their uk counterparts. Ridiculous. 

[DJ360 6,730]

@letsavagoo

 

I've copied this over from the 'News Flash' thread as I feel I owe you a response.

 

Quote

 

I said that the man in custody was a west African migrant. As far as I am aware he is. I don’t know but will wager that his ‘mental health issues’ manifest themselves in violence.

I further said that whether he is a dinghy migrant or otherwise is unclear. Although I can’t see the information you appear to have seen I am prepared to accept that he is ‘otherwise’ and been here a while. So he IS a migrant then isn’t he.

 

 

Yes, of course he's a migrant and I agree that the possibility of a Terrorist dimension must be examined by the Police, but just as the Police stayed silent on many things until facts were established, I'd sooner we all did.

Comments were made here by some people which could be interpreted as saying that immigrants are potential terrorists and that is what I object to. 'Who knows who is on these small boats' was an very early comment.  The Manchester bomber was not an immigrant and neither were three of the four London bombers in 2005. The 'Shoe Bomber' Richard Reid was born here too.

It's about perceptions, which can propagated by ill-considered statements.

 

When we walk down the street, and pass a Black or Asian person, we do not know if they are British,  immigrants, and if so legal, illegal, asylum seeker etc., or whether they are a visitor. We also don't know whether they are a potential killer, either from terrorist or other motivations.

Exactly the same applies to any whites we pass in the street.

But, the lists of mass murderers etc., I posted point to White British as by far the majority killers.

 

Quote

I also said that letting large numbers of unchecked males in the country from war torn countries is a powder keg waiting to explode. A statement that I stand by and if it has any bearing on these terrible murders or not is immaterial although making that statement in the post as I did can be seen as an implied link to this case.

 

But surely most are just seeking a better life and an escape from war and the privations it causes? It doesn't necessarily make them legally entitled to be here, but neither does it makes them dangerous murderers.

 

I also posted this

On 6/14/2023 at 11:06 AM, letsavagoo said:

It is pointless speculating the reason and motive of these brutal murders but I note that not so long ago  Fatoumatta Hydara and her two daughters Fatimah Drammeh and Naeemah Drammeh were killed 

which didn’t receive a fraction of the wall to wall media attention this tragic event has gained.

You have omitted to mention this which I posted as I think some of the press speculation about the man in custody for these appalling murders has been awful and was pointing out the discrepancies going on here.

 

I'm not aware of the case you mention so don't really have a view. That is not to disagree with you.

 

 

Quote

I might be many things but I am NOT racist and I find it highly offensive for it to be said or implied.

 

It was not deliberately said, or implied by me. If it seemed that way to you, I apologise.

 

Quote

It is absolutely typical of the woke fraction to shout racist when people raise concerns about unchecked migration and all its implications, none of which are actually racist at all and I have no doubt that it will cause major problems in the future.

 

'Woke' first...

I have held my basic, centre left political views since long before I, or I suspect you..ever heard the term 'Woke'. As I've explained before, but for the benefit of those who may not know, 'Woke' is a term derived from US  Civil Rights and dating back at least to the 1930s. It originally described a Black person who was 'alert to injustice'. In other words, a Black person who knew that they were disenfranchised, exploited, mistreated etc., and would work towards defeating those injustices.

I'd be interested in your, or anyone's reasons for condemning that usage.

 

What happened next was that the term 'Woke', came to renewed prominence with the emergence of the 'Black Lives Matter' movement, on Trump's watch, among other reactions to US Police brutality, murder etc.. But also and crucially.. the clearly racist and anti Democratic stance of many on the US Far Right, who really didn't like the 'Woke' 'rallying cry' of the US 'liberal/progressive' 'left'. (I use 'left', because there really is no significant 'left' in US Politics in comparison to even 'moderate' Labour in the UK.)

 

So, what the US 'Right' and 'Far Right' set about doing was to redefine and distort the meaning of 'Woke'. They used it, basically to ridicule ANY AND ALL opposition, by implying that it was extreme. They have over time, effectively rendered 'Woke' a term which has gone from being a complement, to a cheap insult, much along the lines of 'Pinko', 'Commie', 'Lefty', when applied to perfectly reasonable people seeking a more just and equitable society. 'Woke' is now no more that the most recent manifestation of what Hofstadter described as 'The Paranoid Style in American Politics'. It's a cheap, debased term and I am genuinely surprised and disappointed that an intelligent person like you persists in using it.

 

Second, you claim that none of the objections to immigration are racist. Seriously?  I want to see immigration properly controlled, for the benefit of all, including the imigrants, but it is blatantly obvious that there is a real racist element here, as in other countries, whose main objection is simply to the colour, race etc., of many immigrants.

As for 'problems in the future'. I seem to recall Enoch Powell making similar predictions in 1968.

[letsavagoo 963]

I think there is a distinction between the immigration that Powell spoke about. That was racism plain and ugly. Just didn’t like or want black people here. They were coming here at invitation to fill the workforce that had been reduced by a war where we fought to end fascism no less.  My concern is the large number of men coming who have no connection or loyalty to us. If I were fleeing war or leaving my land of birth for a better life I’d want my wife, children family with me. Why all the men. I also have concerns that I have laid down above. Their ethnicity doesn’t concern me. Due to the pandemic and government failings the country is in a mess with a cost of living crisis and health service in disarray we could well do without the cost of housing and looking after thousands of people entering illegally. We’re full.

You have schooled me on ‘woke’ previously. However its use in the manner I mentioned it is in common parlance wether you like it or not. I will try and refrain from it in future but I may slip up occasionally.

[Dark Angel 138]

 @Jill Sparrow: It’s likely we’ll never get to the bottom of responsibility for the babies death. However, I am not convinced of Evans’ guilt.

 

Evans had the IQ of an eleven year old. He could neither read nor write. (Wonder who helped him with his statement?)

 

Christie, on the other hand was very intelligent and manipulative. He likely used his ex police card, as it doesn’t appear as though the police did a lot of delving into his background, probably convinced of Evans’ guilt.

 

Not sure about the post-mortem on Beryl Evans as nothing appears to have been noted whether semen present was post death. The baby had been strangled with a tie with a form of reef knot being used. (Christie had been in the scouts.)

 

The tie was found to belong to a man who lived on the first floor who was residing in hospital at the time.

 

Not sure about Evans losing his temper, going down to first floor, obtaining a tie and returning to carry out said felony.

 

Some builders working on the house gave testimony that didn’t correspond to Evans’ statement.

 

The police never noticed a human thigh bone being used to support a piece of fencing when they went to the house and found Beryl and the baby in an outhouse.

 

Christie had obtained a position in the police force (1939-1943) despite having a criminal record. Ironically, 1943 being the year of his first murder. 

 

I haven’t read the book you refer to so will have to keep an eye out for it.

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

We will never know, that is certain. Evans' mother and sisters were not satisfied with the posthumous pardon and wanted his conviction quashed. It never has been and never will be.

 

Evans' IQ has been the subject of much debate. There is evidence that his literacy level was better than his family claimed.  I don't doubt that, even if Evans was guilty, Christie had knowledge of what he had done. It would have been just about impossible in a house of that size, occupied by three sets of tenants, for anyone to sneeze without the others knowing about it.  Christie may indeed have been an accessory after the fact by placing the bodies in the wash house, gambling on the police not searching any further once they had discovered them and thus not spotting the thigh bone propping up the fence, nor locating the two graves in the backyard. You don't see what you're not looking for!

 

So far as I know, the owner of the tie was never established. Christie said it wasn't his. Evans' sister said it didn't belong to her brother. Mr Kitchener was too blind to see it, let alone identify it.

 

At the point where Christie did confess to the murder of Beryl, he claimed he'd administered coal gas to sedate her before he strangled her. Toxicology tests (carried out twice) on Beryl's body showed no evidence of carbon monoxide. Christie was lying? Beryl also had a nasty bruise under her eye most likely caused, according to the pathologist, by a forceful slap with the flat of a hand. This wasn't Christie's modus operandi but Evans hit his wife on a regular basis, even in the street in front of his own mother who, in retaliation, punched him back!

 

Jonathan Oates' book explodes many of the myths around this nasty case and although Peter Mylton-Thorley includes a lot of general historical background in his book, the chapters dealing with the Christies and his close relationship with his much loved older sister are very thought provoking.  Mylton-Thorley also provides valuable information about Beryl's family background where very little had previously been known. He does so at the risk of exposing some facts about his own parents and family that most people would not want made public.

 

I'd recommend both books. They provide a very different view of the case to that of Ludovic Kennedy who has, for perhaps too long, been the accepted authority on the case.

[letsavagoo 963]

As if by magic, this popped up this morning.

 

[letsavagoo 963]

Just been reading about Dale Vince, the green energy Baron worth a good many million. It appears that he funds just stop oil and has donated a few million £’s to the Labour Party. Now it seems he’s been given millions in subsidies by the Labour and surprise surprise Keir Starmer has stated that he will ban oil drilling in the North Sea, in other words, shutting down one of Mr Vinces, rivals. Shock horror. Could this be sleaze in the labour party. Not heard this mentioned here!

[MargieH 7,600]

I don’t think it should be referred to as sleaze as - in my opinion - we should be stopping drilling for oil and concentrating on more sustainable forms of energy.  
We actually have oil for our hot water and heating, and also have a diesel car at the moment, but would still welcome all the renewable forms of energy.  The planet is more important than my particular situation!

[Rob.L 1,090]

@letsavagooGot a link for that story about the party currently in opposition giving out millions in subsidies?