Anything Political

[Beekay 5,185]

Howdo and welcome back Brew. I've missed yer pal.

[DJ360 6,733]

3 hours ago, mr rob t said:

I have been a member of this site a lot longer than you have and we have always had trivial fallouts over politics but nothing on the scale that you've brought to it. As far as I can remember we never needed a politics thread. Sorry to say this but in my opinion you have spoilt this site.

 

 

I'm flattered that you think I have such power and influence. However, sadly, I cannot claim all of the credit because even I cannot argue with myself. As the old saying goes..' It takes two to Tango.' So maybe you should address your comments to all who have participated in debates in this thread.

I will also point out..yet again .that there are literally hundreds of threads and topics on this site. Nobody is obliged to post in, or read, any of them..including this one.

Finally, if you really are sorry to say I've single handedly spoilt this site, then don't say it.

[DJ360 6,733]

Jim, thank you for your support  and injection of sanity.

But mostly, it is good to hear from you.

We all miss your input.

[LizzieM 9,514]

How lovely to see Brew back on the forum! 

[Brew 5,425]

Thanks Col, Lizzie,

I've spent the last few hours reading through, catching up, and gnashing my teeth, before I finally cracked. Lets and his post were tempting but it seemed as though it was getting a little testy.

[trogg 2,020]

Great to see you posting again Brew, I have missed you, there is a meetup next week you would  make  many people happy to see you again there.

[Cliff Ton 10,483]

Nice to see the return of reason and common sense......and hopefully various other spin-offs. 

 

 

 

[MargieH 7,613]

Hello again Brew!  Great to see you’re back again x

[Dark Angel 138]

   Well I never..

          My abstinence from this thread didn’t last long.

 

 Nottstalgia is generally a friendly site, people genuinely seem to care about each other.

 

 However, politics often makes a rational person turn into Mr Hyde. Personally, I think it doesn’t need to be here. Nevertheless, it is up to the owner of the site to decide what is or isn’t allowed to be discussed.

 

Whilst politics is here, no one should be precluded from it, is that not censorship?

DJ 360 has every right to use the politics thread as any other who chooses to use it. As he quite rightly says, nobody has to engage with him.

Whilst I am here, may I respectfully point out that I don’t have issues with migrants, only those that enter this country illegally. There, is no way of telling any who are genuine from those who aren’t. The vast majority being single men, which, as I have previously stated alters the demographics of this country.

 

[DJ360 6,733]

Thanks for those comments DA.

 

I'm not going to rehearse my previous comments except to say:

 

1. The purpose of the Politics thread is to prevent Politics from diverting/causing 'friction' in other threads.

 

2. There were some very interesting comments on Immigration on last night's question time, which shed a different light on numbers, who's coming, who's leaving etc.,etc. as well as confirming, for me at least, that the current shambles is down to a. the current Govt. of 13 years, and b. Brexit.  Question Time will be on the BBC 'iPlayer'.

[Brew 5,425]

Just a quickie in reply, Redman repeating the same old pie in sky tosh, Campbell fixated on one topic. A professor I've never heard of, ditto a businessman who seemed better prepared (or had a damn good memory for facts and figures), I'd liked to have heard more from. The we have Chapman, short of facts long on anti-Tory rhetoric and critical of the honours system. A bit rich and somewhat iffy from someone who became a Baroness for no more than being Starmers mate and secretary.

 

I'm not really a fan of sound bite TV, rarely does anything useful come from it.

 

[DJ360 6,733]

What's happening in Russia?

 

Whatever it is, and even if Putin 'falls', I'd be a bit wary of cheering too soon.

 

Prigozhin, the leader of the 'Wagner Group' of mercenaries, which Russia has employed not only in Ukraine, but further afield in former USSR states, Syria, Africa etc.,seems to be in open revolt against Putin, his former ally, or at least in open revolt against the Russian 'official military leadership'.

Bear in mind that private armies such as the Wagner Group are officially illegal in Russia, but it seems that Putin is/was happy to use Wagner and a few other very 'iffy' organisations, including the pseudo religious 'Russian Orthodox Army' when it suits him.

 

It might be that Putin is discovering, as Victor Frankenstein did..that if you create a monster, you had better be sure you can control it....

 

On the other hand, it's the Russian State which has largely funded and equipped Wagner, which makes one wonder if latest developments are some sort of elaborate game on the part of Putin.  Who knows?

 

Taking a step back, maybe worth reminding ourselves that Russia became officially a Democracy after the collapse of the Soviet Union, but Putin quickly put paid to that, so that what he runs now is a Criminal Dictatorship,  and 'yer average' Russian is effectively disenfranchised, oppressed and silenced.  Independent media is all but closed down and official Political opponents are routinely imprisoned on trumped up charges..or have a habit of 'falling out of windows'.

 

Putin has presided over the economic and political decline of Russia. It's a country with huge natural resources, which should bring huge wealth. Instead it is reduced to a falling population, declining international influence and , with the notable exception of a few other dictatorships (Iran, China, Belarus) and others which have moved politically to the right, including Turkey, India, Hungary.. it is pretty much an international pariah.

 

Although the Wagner Group is seen basically as a commercial enterprise with no 'idealogical' base, elements of it have been seen as Far Right/Neo Nazi, which sits rather oddly against the alleged 'Nazism', which the Russian Army and the Wagner Group were supposedly employed to eradicate in Ukraine.

 

Whatever, Prigozhin has openly criticised the Russian Military and seems to be in open rebellion..

 

There's an awful lot of rumour flying around on the internet, ranging from Prigozhin 'marching on Moscow'., to Putin vowing to 'crush' Progozhin. Reports of Tanks on the streets of Moscow, reports of some elements of the Russian Army, joining forces with Prigozhin, whilst others are fighting him and many just doing nothing. Best to wait and see I think. The situation is much more complex than this little post can describe. Have a look here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

 

However, if this does in some way signal the end of Putin, I doubt it will mean that Russian Democracy is restored...and it does leave me wondering who will end up controlling Russian Nuclear Weapons..although if they are as well maintained as a lot of other Russian hardware....

[DJ360 6,733]

1 hour ago, Brew said:

A bit rich and somewhat iffy from someone who became a Baroness for no more than being Starmers mate and secretary.

 

Maybe. I know very little about her or when she was 'elevated' and on whose say so..

 

However she does appear to have at least had a Political career and some experience, which puts her well ahead of Johnson's Dad, his other cronies and a 30 year old 'adviser' with about 20 minutes experience

 

I'd say we can probably agree that the Honours system is broken and needs a 'severe dose of looking at'.

[Brew 5,425]

The Americans must be wetting themselves with glee over Russia's failed attempt to prove themselves a dominant force in Ukraine. All they have shown to the world so far is how poor they are in terms of moral, leadership and equipment.

That said let's remember there are still an awful lot of them and we know from their tactics in other conflicts they are more than happy to keep throwing men in the field to achieve their objective.

 

Should Putin fall I doubt his replacement is likely to be much different, especially if it's Prigozhin a man known for his brutality.  Reading the background story of the Wagner group, Machiavelli would be proud..

[DJ360 6,733]

Amazingly Prigozhin appears to have cut a deal. He is going to live in Belarus. I wouldn't  give much for his long term chances..

His troops are apparently not getting any sanction..but will presumably be under the control of the Russian army.

 Who knows what happens next...

[DJ360 6,733]

Re the above. It's still baffling more knowledgeable folks than me, but one theory is that Putin has been quietly increasing his influence in Belarus, and even that Progozhin's 'exile' to Belarus is part of a 'coup' against Lukashenko.

Alternatively Lukashenko has used Prigozhin as a lever to gain favour and increased 'clout' with Putin, by 'solving' Putin's problem.

 

Again..who really knows?

[DJ360 6,733]

This is a link to a very long but fascinating piece about Russia, Putin, Prigozhin etc.

For anyone interested.

 

https://open.substack.com/pub/snyder/p/prigozhins-march-on-moscow?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

[MargieH 7,613]

 Col, that was an interesting read.  I never knew that it was Prigozhin who, as head of the ‘Internet Research Agency’ worked hard to get Trump elected in 2016!  Or maybe that’s not accurate - with all the conflicting statements we can read,, it’s getting more and more like in the book ‘1984’. 
I expect we’ll soon be told we are at war with the US and friends with Russia!!!! (and that this has always been so)

[Jill Sparrow 10,321]

Ignorance is strength?!

[MargieH 7,613]

Science fiction often turns out not to be fiction after all!    

[DJ360 6,733]

 

Quote

 

it is important to specify a difference between Putin and Prigozhin's fascism and that of the 1930s. The two men are both very concerned with money, ....... They are oligarchical fascists -- a breed worth watching here in the US as well."

 

 

 

^^^

This line resonated with me, and from the comments on the piece, with others too.

And if you accept that 'oligarchical fascists' exist on the American Right, then it is entirely possible that they exist within British politics too, which is basically what I've been saying about the present Govt.  Maybe not overtly, but as the 'backers' of the likes of Truss, and among those secreted in the IEA and other lobbyists, whose 'message' she seems to have swallowed hook line and sinker.

[Rob.L 1,090]

There’s certainly a lot of chatter recently about the ennoblement of Baron Evgeny Lebedev of Hampton and Siberia, with MI5’s apparent concerns about the family links to Putin being overruled by Johnson, together with the news that the Italian secret service was monitoring what happened when Johnson attended parties at former KGB Colonel Alexander Lebedev’s Italian mansion.

 

[Brew 5,425]

9 hours ago, DJ360 said:

This is a link to a very long but fascinating piece about Russia, Putin, Prigozhin etc.

For anyone interested.

 

   A long diatribe full of rhetoric and supposition but short, very, of actual facts. Lots of jingoism to engender a mind worm and blame Fascists - even a jolly little memorable phrase we can use to associate with the bogey men: 

oligarchical fascists, I bet he's proud of that one...

 

Some of it I can agree with but to accuse Putin of running away plus planning genocide is silly - wanting unlimited access to Ukraine's resources, particularly agriculture, that I can believe.

 

Did Russia try to interfere in the US elections? possibly maybe even probably, but how effective were they? no idea.

Since 2016 there have been accusations of electoral interreference in the U.S. attributed to Iran. China, Russia, Pakistan, and North Korea has threatened to jump on the bandwagon more than once. 

Russia accused Hilary Clinton of doing much the same thing and blamed her when Muscovites rioted in red square during Putin's campaigning for the presidency.

Electoral interference is a broad brush and has even tainted UK elections with the first steps towards citizens carrying an ID card at polling stations.

 

I don't doubt the war of words in the media influences what people think, but when the president of the United States uses 'fake news and downright lies' as a polemic it's rather like scoring an own goal, who do you believe?

On consideration there are echoes of this a little closer to home...

 

Russia is accused of favouring Trump over Biden, China supposedly considered Trump unreliable, it's a political roundabout, Trump, apparently, has now turned away from criticising Russia and seems to be focusing on disparaging China. And so it goes on...

[DJ360 6,733]

Jim, I disagree with your assessment that it is a 'diatribe'. the Cambridge Dictionary defines a diatribe as: an 'angry speech or piece of writing that severely criticizes something or someone'.

 

I see it more as Snyder's analysis of the topic.

 

Also.. 'jingoism' (Cambridge Def. the extreme belief that your own country is always best, often shown in enthusiastic support for a war against another country: )

 

I'm struggling to find that in his piece too. He's American, and he's critical of aspects of American politics in his piece and his wider works. His anti  (Putin's )Russia and anti Fascist stance does not automatically translate as Jingoism.

 

Also, if Russia under Putin is not fascist  then I'm struggling to imagine what is. There is a lot of disagreement over exactly what constitues Fascism, but the basic elements are generally agreed to include many of these:

 

1. "Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism"
2. "Disdain for the importance of human rights"
3. "Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause"
4. "The supremacy of the military/avid militarism"
5. "Rampant sexism"
6. "A controlled mass media"
7. "Obsession with national security"
8. "Religion and ruling elite tied together"
9. "Power of corporations protected"
10. "Power of labor suppressed or eliminated"
11. "Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts"
12. "Obsession with crime and punishment"
13. "Rampant cronyism and corruption"
14. "Fraudulent elections"

 

I can argue that at least 9 of the above are visible in UK politics.

 

Snyder is a historian. His analysis is not accepted by all, but he's written a number of best sellers.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_D._Snyder

 

 

[Brew 5,425]

Quite why we're arguing semantics I'm not sure, but in the strictest sense, Jingoism (extreme patriotism),  I'll give you, although you can be extremely critical of your country and still believe it's the best there is.

 

I stand with diatribe.

 

"A diatribe, also known less formally as rant, is a lengthy oration, though often reduced to writing, made in criticism of someone or something, often employing humor, sarcasm, and appeals to emotion".      Wiki

 

Diatribe -  a bitter and abusive speech or piece of writing - ironic or satirical criticism or  - a prolonged discourse : Webster

 

There is more...

------------------------------

 

Which bit did you think was me denying Putin was acting like a fascist? and  could we not also make a case for many governments around the world that meet the same criteria, not just the UK?

Over-emphasis of the words fascist and fascism along with a trite phrase is little more than a less than subtle way of raising fears, somewhat akin to McCarthy and the 1950's

 

Snyder's analysis is not, as you say, universally accepted, though I did  agree with some of it, but when he makes up unfounded and and quite frankly downright ridiculous accusations he rather loses credibility - with me at least.

 

Writing a best seller doesn't count for much  or impress me. I've read the one written by the biggest fascist the world has seen in recent history. I didn't agree with that one either.