DJ360 6,733 Posted July 21, 2023 Report Share Posted July 21, 2023 On 7/18/2023 at 11:27 PM, Brew said: pay rise of 6% guarantees people leaving their jobs, rubbish! - evidence? Because in the current climate, and on top of 13 years of below inflation pay increases, public sector pay has decreased in value more than overall pay. Any pay increase which is below the inflation for the relevant period is, by definition, a pay cut. As for people leaving jobs? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/01/revealed-record-170000-staff-leave-nhs-in-england-as-stress-and-workload-take-toll https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/the-long-goodbye-exploring-rates-of-staff-leaving-the-nhs-and-social-care https://yougov.co.uk/topics/economy/articles-reports/2021/05/05/one-eleven-nhs-workers-plan-leave-healthcare-secto On 7/18/2023 at 11:27 PM, Brew said: With doctors and head teachers, and even train drivers averaging between £60,000/£100,000 they haven't fallen very far Col ,and it's rather an own goal to say there has been no significant inflation, so why are they suddenly so desperate for more money? The actual pay rates have little to do with it, unless you want to invoke the 'politics of envy' argument, which is usually aimed at the left. The point for NHS staff in particular and Public Sector staff in general is that Govt. has 'held down' their pay for over a decade and is still doing so. basically, because it can. You can see this as an economic decision, but it is also a clearly political decision and a part of the Tories general assault on public services. And if you look at the figures, whilst nurses pay has shriuk by several percent, Consultants' pay has shrunk by around 17%. (Yes..in real terms. I'm at a loss to understand your objection to that metric) You, or I might be envious of Consultant's pay, but it takes them a minimum of 15 years training to reach the BOTTOM of the pay scale. Look also at the difference between Private and Public sector pay increases. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55089900 From which: Quote The Office for National Statistics (ONS) says that private sector pay grew 6.9% between August and October 2022 while public sector pay grew 2.7%, and that this was among the largest differences ever seen between the two. But both figures are still well below inflation - the rate at which prices are currently rising. On 7/18/2023 at 11:27 PM, Brew said: What legal authority has Sunak to dictate or interfere with a private company? Those companies were privatised by Central Govt. They can be 'unprivatised' too. Yes, I know it would be hugely costly, butthe threat should exist. We cannot continue like this and only the Govt. has the power to legislate, or otherwise bring these rogue, profiteering companies to heel. Those companies have a DUTY to provide services. They are failing in that DUTY. It isn't power that Sunak lacks.. it is the Political Will. If the Regulators are useless, it is up to Govt. to give them teeth and ensure that they use them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,733 Posted July 21, 2023 Report Share Posted July 21, 2023 Re By-Election Results. I was still awake when the Tory winner in Uxbridge made his disastrous 'speech'... Quote 'Wow!.. Sadiq Khan has lost this election for Labour..Nobody expected us to win here!'..etc.. What a clown. Probably only allowed to stand because the Tories expected him to lose. Still a huge swing to Labour. And however badly Sadiq Khan may have handled the ULEZ issue, don't forget that he's only trying to implement yet another very difficult policy area, alongside Social Care, Youth Services etc... which the Tories have dumped onto Local Govt, to shift scrutiny and blame from themselves. And of course Sunak dribbling about people being focused on 'What's happening in Westminster', instead of 'Real local issues'. He's living in an alternative reality. Somerton and Frome. I was very impressed with the way the successful Lib-Dem candidate spoke. And finally Selby. A terrific result for Labour in a traditionbal Tory constituency. Overall, from here it looks like 'The Country 2. The Tories 1. (just)' I'll take that... and it points further to the potential for a Lib/Lab Coalition, which I'd like, for many reasons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
benjamin1945 16,182 Posted July 21, 2023 Report Share Posted July 21, 2023 I don't normally comment on Politics (i leave that to those who are much more 'Savvy'' can't spell 'Knowledgeable''............Obviously i have my views and they were formed as i grew up on a council estate with very working class people... However over the years my views have changed considerably...because of my experiences in life......haven't voted Labour since Tony Blairs awful mistakes......and simply cannot vote Tory as it would seem like a betrayal of my Roots..... So i won't be voting for any of the main Parties who to me all seem intent on looking after themselves..and are very much alike........but what do i know........ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,733 Posted July 21, 2023 Report Share Posted July 21, 2023 You're as entitled to your view anyone else Ben. IF, you were to ask me based on what you've said, I'd advise voting for whoever is most likely to unseat a Tory, or prevent a Tory from winning. Tactical voting in other words. That's because I genuinely believe the present Tory lot are way beyond the pale and beyond redemption. I'm also hoping for a broad left coalition of Lab, Greens, Lib Dems etc., which could force Starmer to adopt a proper centre left position and could even lead to PR. But that's only IF..you asked.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
benjamin1945 16,182 Posted July 21, 2023 Report Share Posted July 21, 2023 Never ever ever could i vote Conservative.......especially since i bumped into Lee Anderson a few months ago..........who is now a Tory after being Labour.in my area of Ashfield........ex Miner who just goes with anything to stay in the limelight.....he just looks and sounds so False...probably be Lib/Dem after the next election.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted July 21, 2023 Report Share Posted July 21, 2023 2 hours ago, DJ360 said: As for people leaving jobs My contention still stands Col, the pay award quoted in the Guardian is 1%, not the present pay offer, nor was pay the only reason given. I maintain 6% would not be the main reason for staff leaving as per the article. It has to be said that pay is one of the primary reasons anyone leaves any job, why any would think or expect the NHS should be any different I don't know. 2 hours ago, DJ360 said: The actual pay rates have little to do with it, unless you want to invoke the 'politics of envy' argument, which is usually aimed at the left. No I do not want to invoke envy or any other emotive reason. Simple logic will suffice, you said "fallen behind on pay", at the rates of pay I quoted !'d say they haven't fallen far and are paid quite handsomely. The reality is they can still afford a very comfortable standard of living. Why do I dislike the phrase 'real terms'? it's always open to interpretation, and lacks certainty. Always highly selective, mostly used to mislead, confuse, and bolster a weak argument. The length of time to train a consultant, according to the BMA, is six to eight years, not fifteen and they are hardly living in penury or on interns money during that time so I can't see the relevance. Private pay comparisons are pointless. A doctor in a private practice can charge what they like. 3 hours ago, DJ360 said: Those companies were privatised by Central Govt. They can be 'unprivatised' too. I quite agree and would not be too miffed if they did just that. Sunak can do little to change things, it has to be Parliament. Their DUTY though is not quite so cut and dried... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted July 21, 2023 Report Share Posted July 21, 2023 I can empathise with Ben, for at least the last ten years we've suffered, on both sides, under the biggest shower of grubby incompetents I've ever known. I'll probably vote against the Tories but for whom I don't know. Sadly it all serves to prove Maistre right, we do it to ourselves. I hope you're wrong Col, I'm convinced such a government would fail, the infighting would be epic to the point of paralysis. Starmer isn't made of the right stuff to make one work in my opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HSR 286 Posted July 22, 2023 Report Share Posted July 22, 2023 I am currently, on a daily basis, searching for my 'White Privilage'. It's a somewhat thankless task. When I achieve this, I will address my 'Unconscious Bias. Is it NHS funded? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,733 Posted July 22, 2023 Report Share Posted July 22, 2023 15 hours ago, Brew said: It has to be said that pay is one of the primary reasons anyone leaves any job, why any would think or expect the NHS should be any different I don't know. The NHS is suffering from lack of funding, understaffing, and a workforce which is to say the least 'disgruntled' after consistent reduction in the real terms value of it's pay, not just since the recent inflation spike, but also for at least 13 years. Add in that Nurses, Doctors, Consultants etc.. can not simply be replaced 'off the shelf', and I'd say it is very clear why the NHS should be seen as different. 15 hours ago, Brew said: No I do not want to invoke envy or any other emotive reason. Simple logic will suffice, you said "fallen behind on pay", at the rates of pay I quoted !'d say they haven't fallen far and are paid quite handsomely. The reality is they can still afford a very comfortable standard of living. Yes, in relative terms, Consultants do OK, but if MPs saw their pay eroded by below inflation pay rises..or if you saw the same.. would you tolerate it? This comes back to the root of the inflation problem. Primary producers, suppliers, distributors, retailers etc.. not to mention Bond Market Investors and similar, can all protect their earnings against inflation by increasing prices. Private sector workers in 'shortage' occupations (an ever growing list) can also do OK, but those whose pay is not genuinely subject to 'market forces', which is basically all Public Sector workers, are open to exploitation by Govt. That is exactly what is happening with the NHS. 15 hours ago, Brew said: Why do I dislike the phrase 'real terms'? it's always open to interpretation, and lacks certainty. Always highly selective, mostly used to mislead, confuse, and bolster a weak argument. I entirely disagree with that assessment. 'In real terms' simply means 'adjusted for inflation'. So, when the Govt' says they have 'increased spending on the NHS by a record amount', that might be true.. but it is misleading if not expressed 'in real terms', by taking inflation into account. I'm pretty sure that it is easy to demonstrate that most 'increased spending' on Public Services in the last 13 years, is, in 'real terms', i.e. 'adjusted for inflation', a reduction in spending. 16 hours ago, Brew said: The length of time to train a consultant, according to the BMA, is six to eight years, not fifteen and they are hardly living in penury or on interns money during that time so I can't see the relevance. Simply incorrect. The six to eight years you quote is after the initial 4-6 years for a medical degree, 2 further years 'Foundation' training and 2-3 years Core training. So, as a minimum 14 years and up to 19 years if training is not interrupted by sabbaticals, maternity or whatever. I've already explained the 'relevance'. Whether you or I think they are 'well off', 'overpaid' or whatever is the irrelevance. The simple fact is that their pay has been eroded in real terms under this Tory Govt. 16 hours ago, Brew said: Private pay comparisons are pointless. How do you conclude that? Private Sector Pay is mostly decided by the Tories' beloved 'market forces'. Public Sector pay is determined by Govt. and is mostly a Political decision. And, regarding privatised transport, utilities etc.... 16 hours ago, Brew said: Their DUTY though is not quite so cut and dried... Well of course that is a regulatory issue. any Private Company has a 'duty' to its shareholders, but when that takes priority over the purpose for which it was artificially created by Govt., to provide an essential Public Service, then both the Company and the 'regulator' have failed. ..and that is the fault of Government. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted July 22, 2023 Report Share Posted July 22, 2023 1 hour ago, DJ360 said: The NHS is suffering from lack of funding, understaffing, and a workforce which is to say the least 'disgruntled' after consistent reduction in the real terms value of it's pay, not just since the recent inflation spike, but also for at least 13 years. That's a political point and I don't doubt what you say, but i was responding to Murphy's nonsensical implication that a 6% pay rise would lead to a mass exodus of NHS staff. 1 hour ago, DJ360 said: Yes, in relative terms, Consultants do OK, but if MPs saw their pay eroded by below inflation pay rises..or if you saw the same.. would you tolerate it? Again Col that's a political view and a diversion from my assessment of the Murphy essay which was the start of this series - a surprising 'yeahbutnobut'. 1 hour ago, DJ360 said: How do you conclude that? Private Sector Pay is mostly decided by the Tories' beloved 'market forces'. Public Sector pay is determined by Govt. and is mostly a Political decision. How? you've rather answered your own question. Public sector pay is as you say, decided by the establishment. The private sector pay is determined by FREE market forces (you missed that important word free). A different structure entirely. Public services are written in stone and cannot adapt or respond to external influences - until the goal posts are moved. Private sectors are not and mostly demand led. You cannot compare apples with oranges. 1 hour ago, DJ360 said: Well of course that is a regulatory issue. any Private Company has a 'duty' to its shareholders, but when that takes priority over the purpose for which it was artificially created by Govt., to provide an essential Public Service, then both the Company and the 'regulator' have failed. ..and that is the fault of Government. Regulation of utilities have been with us since Labour nationalised them in 1947 and the governments regulatory bodies, of all colours, have not performed well since before Thatcher told Sid. Both parties have either installed or maintained quango regulators, the latest being GEMA and its operating arm OFGEM for gas and electricity. They are funded by the utility companies, not taxpayers. Notionally (I say notionally, as far as I can tell they answer to the Secretary of State at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy), both are independent, so where does responsibility for poor performance lie? The semi-autonomous regulators (staffed by civil servants), or governments who simply leave them to it? OFWAT for some reason are not independent in the same way and are part of the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,733 Posted July 30, 2023 Report Share Posted July 30, 2023 Finally getting around to replying Jim... You are sort of correct in dismissing my arguments as 'political' because you are still relating them to the article/essay I posted a while back, but which I'd almost forgotten about. Also, in any case, I mostly posted that to point up the fact that decisions around Public Sector pay are Political and are made by the Govt. of the day. Couple that basic fact with the known disdain of the present Tory lot for public services in general, public service workers in particular and public spending on anything but themselves and their cronies and it's not difficult to see the problem. The Tories are deliberately holding down Public Sector wages, relative to Private Sector wages. It's THAT simple. In my opinion the Tories' motivation is simple... They want to reduce public spending, the influence of trade unions and of course inflation. They argue that their stance on Public Sector pay is 'fair and reasonable', when by any logic it simply isn't. It's a pity that they..and Sunak in particular didn't apply such stringent spending controls when they were throwing OUR money about like confetti after Sunak's first budget.. and yet it seems to have been confetti designed only to land on their pals. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted July 30, 2023 Report Share Posted July 30, 2023 22 minutes ago, DJ360 said: Also, in any case, I mostly posted that to point up the fact that decisions around Public Sector pay are Political and are made by the Govt. of the day. Would you not agree posting a discredited article in support is not a good idea and can in some ways weaken the the argument? 26 minutes ago, DJ360 said: The Tories are deliberately holding down Public Sector wages, relative to Private Sector wages. It's THAT simple. In my opinion the Tories' motivation is simple.. No arguments there, but I would argue it's not actually 'that simple', The economy and the causes of inflation for example are hugely complex and whilst they are buried in demand pull and cost push concepts, wage rises are major contributors. What makes anything 'fair and reasonable' is worthy of a dissertation in itself with, no doubt much emphasis on, 'in real terms'...not an argument anyone can win. ---------------------------------- I am lately more and more less likely to point out counter arguments that to my mind offer a balanced view of government policy. The latest epistle to get my goat is the smarmy (I really could do with Cols vitriol here), statement Jeremy Hunt has just come up with. He states he's more than happy with the "very fast" reaction of the government to the factor 8 scandal. A problem first flagged in 1975 and ignored until 2017. An inquiry started July 2017 and though predicted to last less than three months, still has not given its report six years later. Labour can make no mileage from this, they did absolutely jack during three turns in power. What have the inquiry discussed for the last year? Government coverups and candour, whatever that means, I bet it's nothing to be proud of... Meanwhile the poor sods who have only been waiting almost fifty years, plus the families of the 3000 who have died so far can take heart, they're working very fast! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
benjamin1945 16,182 Posted August 5, 2023 Report Share Posted August 5, 2023 Think we are all agreed that the Political Parties ie Labour and Tory's are about the same nowadays.........and we the general public are sick of em all... Surely if the right people got together and formed a Party that set out the right policies for the country it would sweep to power... Stop the Boats..... Make Brexit work... Get rid of the likes Sadiq Khan and his ripping off'' of working class motorists with ULEZ.......... Millionaire people in power...who have no idea of normal life........ Halt Society going cashless... Stop building houses for private Landlords to buy and rent out... I could go on...wish i was 30 years younger......i'd be out of here...... To somewhere less crowded and warmer......where the ordinary people mattered.......don't know where.. any idea's ?. Perhaps somewhere that you could buy Tub Butter'' and dance down the ''Locarno'' cheaply on a Tuesday night......i've always been a 'Dreamer'' 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
trogg 2,020 Posted August 5, 2023 Report Share Posted August 5, 2023 Tek me wiv you Ben, Locarno sounds great , any other takers. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jill Sparrow 10,316 Posted August 5, 2023 Report Share Posted August 5, 2023 16 minutes ago, benjamin1945 said: To somewhere less crowded and warmer......where the ordinary people mattered.......don't know where.. any idea's ?. Perhaps somewhere that you could buy Tub Butter'' and dance down the ''Locarno'' cheaply on a Tuesday night......i've always been a 'Dreamer'' You mean, The Past. As L P Hartley said, it's another country and they do things differently there. Yes, I'll come. Have you got permission, young Trogg? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MargieH 7,613 Posted August 5, 2023 Report Share Posted August 5, 2023 @benjamin1945 I think what you need is a Time Machine to take you back to the 50s/60s when life seemed less complicated and worrying. (But even back then, many people had a hard life …. ) I’d love to go back to the Locarno times with you and trogg but only for a short time as I’d miss my family and friends. It would be great to dance with you both - but I hope the Time Machine would also give me my teenage body back!!! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted August 5, 2023 Report Share Posted August 5, 2023 Just to pee on everyone's strawberries, if you do find a time machine and want to turn the clock back - count me out! I would not go back to my childhood for a gold pension. Today, yes it's has it's faults, and yes politicians are mostly a self serving disgrace. But we are far and away better off than our parents and my grandparents couldn't even imagine half of what we have today. We moan at the lack of stalls in a market, whilst enjoying the vast selection supermarkets offer in comfortable and convenient surroundings. Who in their right mind wants to shop outdoors in bad weather then struggle on public transport laden down with shopping bags. I threw my rose coloured glasses away a long time ago... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cliff Ton 10,479 Posted August 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2023 The past always seems better because, being younger, you weren't aware of everything happening in the world around you. You only saw a limited range of what goes on, and everything seemed much better because you didn't know all that was out there. And there's also the natural tendency to remember good, pleasant things, whilst your brain filters out the unpleasant and inconvenient. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jill Sparrow 10,316 Posted August 5, 2023 Report Share Posted August 5, 2023 It depends, to a large extent, on what kind of childhood you had. I know Ben had a wonderful childhood and mine was as good as it gets, on the whole. Sadly, some people don't have those golden memories. Given the (impossible) option, I'd ditch the 21st century for the era in which I grew up without giving it a second thought. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted August 5, 2023 Report Share Posted August 5, 2023 Cliff Ton has it right. people remember an age when they had no responsibility, they were young and carefree. They were totally unaware of their surroundings beyond their own little world or how the adults coped with life and the difficulties they faced. Decisions were made for them and the passage of time makes memories quite selective. Those who wish for yesterday do so from todays perspective and only 'if they knew then, what they know now'. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Oztalgian 3,328 Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 On July 1st 2023 The Australian Government introduced the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC) Since then anyone that has been referred to it has been deemed to be naccered Quote Link to post Share on other sites
benjamin1945 16,182 Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 23 hours ago, trogg said: Tek me wiv you Ben, Locarno sounds great , any other takers. OK trogg......get practicing your ''Chat up'' lines........and bring plenty of money its a bit expensive Tuesdays 1/6...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
letsavagoo 964 Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 I agree in principle that many of us can look back at our much younger years with fondness as we didn’t have the responsibilities and awareness of what was happening around us. I love computers and tech and computers have provided me with employment, income and a hobby and benefits but have bought with them a lot of undesirable effects that the world could do without. Life expectancy, freedom to be open about sexuality etc all better but I look around the city and it’s not my imagination that the decline in humanity and infrastructure is palpable. I’d go back 50 years in a heartbeat if it were possible and not look back (or forward if you see what I mean) The main thing I’d miss other than family and my wonderful grandchildren is satnav. I would miss that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cliff Ton 10,479 Posted August 6, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 SatNavs have gone to their own thread. https://nottstalgia.com/forums/topic/24356-satnav-and-maps/?tab=comments#comment-707151 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
benjamin1945 16,182 Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 Shoplifters and the Police................wasn't sure where to put this...but i thought well ''It does get Political'' Clearing some old papers came across some items from my Store Detecting days.....ie Photo's from Coop stores dated in year 2,000 and newspaper cuttings.......the photo's show dozens of shoplifters in the act......obviously can't show them on here....and in one newspaper cutting it tells of 4 local men sent to prison for theft at several Nottingham Coops......i was part of a team that helped get them arrested....and whilst i mostly reminisce about my funny and indeed comical times with many 'Lifters'' all over the country....i seldom comment on some of the real 'Nasty' people involved......and some of the photo's show them at their worst....... Back in the 90s and Os the Police were brilliant and always attended no matter what the 'Value' was........ We mostly operated on late shifts mostly till 10 o'clock..as this was the time that most 'Male Managers' had gone home and the poor staff mostly Females in their 40s and 50s were left to face it..... We lost a big contract in the North west after telling the Top Management'' what we thought about this practice...... Nowadays the Police have ceased attending in most cases apparently, unless the theft ran into hundreds of pounds...and i believe the 'Lifters' have to have had at least 20 arrests before they face prison...... One of my Sons is a retail manager and tells me about attitudes of Police and also the 'Brazen' way the thieves operate today..... Stores are closing and people are losing their jobs...and the powers that be don't seem to care....... Back in the day most 'Store Detectives'' in retail Grocery inc the Coops..would stop and detain at least 20 thieves per week and the Police would always back them up....and many received custodial penalty's.......many company's have ceased employing SDs and are letting the shoplifters walk away with whatever they want...and with the lack of Back-up who can blame them.........Rant Over...for now... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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