Anything Political

[Brew 5,425]

  

12 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I see the Rwanda Bill has passed. We'll see what it actually DOES.,

Whether we agree with it or not at least someone is finally doing something positive and not just bleating about some ill-defined, hodgepodge plan no one, not even the proposers understand.

 

12 hours ago, DJ360 said:

the Tories absolutely cannot defend their appalling record, so they are desperately casting around for other people to blame..  Classic right wing tactics..)

 

Actually that's classic political debate. Every political party regardless will always claim to have an answer to a problem, just as they will always have a reason why it didn't work, and a place, or someone to lay the blame upon. It's not a particularly right-wing gambit.

 

12 hours ago, DJ360 said:

So.. it must be a fact that there are 70000 Civil Servants sitting about on their collective 'butts' doing nothing worthwhile.

It's always been a popular axiom that something easy is "like a job on the council". An urban legend and may not be true but the principle has merit.

Oz is right in many ways, the civil service has always been perceived as suffering from quango's, empire builders and those looking for an easy ride on the gravy train. The officious attitudes of jobsworths in the past still linger giving rise to the present-day stereotype.

 

Some facts. Under Blair there was a rapidly rising civil service peaking at almost 500,000, (2009).

The spending review of 2010 saw a fall of 100,000 over 5 years, far more than the present proposed cut.

It has risen since 2016 to 510,000 and still increasing at a rate of 20,000 a year.

 

More than time for some trimming methinks.

 

12 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Think about it..  If we actually had that situation.. WTF have the Tories been doing for 14 years to allow that to develop?  Especially since Public Services have been falling apart..coincidentally.. for the same period of time..

 

Probably the same as Blair/Brown did during their 13 years in office allowing for a huge rise in the civil service.

 

Cutting costs and budgets is not unprecedented; the Labour government cut the NHS budget even before it was fully established!

Starmer's proposal, whilst not increasing the civil service wage bill, will increase the public sector wage bill by 240,000. The increase in pension payments also coming from the public purse. Labour suggests renationalising the railways, as if that's a top priority.

Evidently, it's deemed more critical than the failing utilities, more pressing than polluting our rivers with untreated sewage, and outrageous price hikes. More urgent than the dilemma of choosing between eating or heating... More important than taking our energy supplies away from foreign control... And it reduces money available for any public spending.

 

Seriously?

 

Labour needs to get their priorities in the right order.

 

Part 3 is just puffery...   

[DJ360 6,733]

11 hours ago, Oztalgian said:

I am talking about the rapid proliferation of "administrators/managers" whose sole aim appears to come up with more ways of having the front-line staff do more reporting and data collecting thus spending less and less time on doing what actually matters.

 

Well I certainly can't disagree too much with that.. having been a victim of it myself.  In my early days in the Careers Service I was required to put in a simple monthly 'stat', detailing how many Guidance Interviews, Groupwork Sessions, Employer Visits etc., I had done.  These were added into whatever reporting was fed back to Central Govt, which was mostly, youth employment/unemployment figures etc. It wasn't an onerous task. I had a caseload of 'schoolies', a section of the 'unemployed' register, a section of the Employer /Training Organisation base and that was it. I was pretty much autonomous most of the time and just got on with the job.  It's true that over time, the amount of detailed info Central Govt demanded, increased exponentially and they seemed to operate on the basis that if there were unemployed youngsters it was because we weren't 'directing' them with sufficient force. Naturally that doesn't sit well witrh someone who is trained in GUIDANCE.. but whatever. All part of Govt. blaming everyone but themselves..

 

But... I'm not sure I could confidently come up with a figure of 30%. I'd also seriously question the notion that sacking off 70000 'Civil Servants' would free up enough cash for a major boost in defence spending. Sensible people will conclude that taxation will not come down..but of course that's not a popular message to Tory voters.

I'd also query what is meant by 'Civil Servants', since many former Civil Service functions have been privatised and many others are chronically understaffed and underfunded.

 

As I said, parts 1,2 and 3 of this latest set of diversions by the Tories are obvious attempts to frame the Tory argument around the usual stuff... just different versions of 'benefit scroungers', 'jobsworth bone idle public employees' and 'them forriners coming ere getting everything free and taking our jobs'.

 

It's NeoCon  'small state anti public service ambitions', victim blaming, jingoism, 'Little Englander' stuff all rolled into one.

[DJ360 6,733]

4 hours ago, Brew said:

It's not a particularly right-wing gambit.

 

I think it is.. because it is wrapped up in 'culture wars', NeoCon economic 'thinking' and all of the rest.

 

4 hours ago, Brew said:

It's always been a popular axiom that something easy is "like a job on the council". An urban legend and may not be true but the principle has merit.

 

If it may not be true, how can the principle have merit?

4 hours ago, Brew said:

The officious attitudes of jobsworths in the past still linger giving rise to the present-day stereotype.

 

Stereotypes are never correct, nor do they bear even superficial examination.

[Rob.L 1,090]

5 hours ago, Brew said:

 

Some facts. Under Blair there was a rapidly rising civil service peaking at almost 500,000, (2009).

The spending review of 2010 saw a fall of 100,000 over 5 years, far more than the present proposed cut.

It has risen since 2016 to 510,000 and still increasing at a rate of 20,000 a year.

I wonder what happened in 2016 that led to them having to recruit lots more civil servants.

[Brew 5,425]

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

If it may not be true, how can the principle have merit?

 

To have merit, or to merit something. To be worthy; of consideration, investigation, attention... Much like saying "there's some truth in it"

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

Stereotypes are never correct, nor do they bear even superficial examination.

 

I'm sure you don't need me to explain that stereotypes are over simplified generalised descriptions; but can serve to convey an opinion in short form.

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

I think it is.. because it is wrapped up in 'culture wars', NeoCon economic 'thinking' and all of the res

That's just left wing rhetoric...

 

And three non-specific replies reads much like obfuscation and akin to Starmer's  refusal to face facts...

---------------

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

'd also query what is meant by 'Civil Servants', since many former Civil Service functions have been privatised and many others are chronically understaffed and underfunded.

 

If so many functions have been moved to the private sector as you suggest, why do we have more civil servants now than at any time in history? and what on earth are they doing?

I'm struggling with your assessment. Spending cuts and fewer services, rising numbers (4% last year), of people to carrying them out - how does that work?

 

The reduction is to be phased over three years, a point the media omit to mention, it's far more dramatic to imply mass sacking.

 

Whilst I have some sympathy for your own personal experience and recognise it is meaningful to you, it is very much limited, localised, and cannot be used as a metric for assessing the whole civil service.

 

From our friendly left wing nedia. the Guardian:

 

"Instead of waiting like martyrs for the axe to fall, civil servants could do something about the appalling culture of wastage...

Sadly, I have often come across people who do a great deal to uphold the cliche that the civil service is bloated and inefficient."

"As someone who regularly defends the public sector and who doesn't want to see Thatcher-like cuts, I have nonetheless become disillusioned by the institutionalised squandering of money in my department, and by the way opportunities to implement Tory-imposed "austerity measures" have been ignored."

[Brew 5,425]

1 hour ago, Rob.L said:

I wonder what happened in 2016 that led to them having to recruit lots more civil servants.

It came about after the 2015 spending review. In 2016 the EU referendum took place when the civil service had the smallest workforce since WW2.

More were needed to prepare for the breakup with the EU - then came covid.

The growth in numbers from there on just never slowed down.

.

[LizzieM 9,514]

2 hours ago, Brew said:

 

The growth in numbers from there on just never slowed down.

And half of them work from home!  

2 hours ago, Brew said:

.

 

[mary1947 2,089]

I have only posted once/twice on this thread.

 

As we have regular people posting maybe you can answer a few questions for me?

 On May 2nd its the day you vote  now we have had leaflets come though our door which say Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire councils are to join forces, they say that the region will be given powers it has not had before with control over a level of funding that will enable long term improvement in the performance of the regional economy of the regional of the prosperity of its people.

Question ? Did anybody ask or vote for them to join together.? not that I know of,

Question wait for it ????? Well I did not know that we had joined the USA we also have got to vote for a local Mayor yes a local Mayor It seems that when it comes to spending OUR MONEY this person will have the final say??? 

Question Will this get our roads repaired ? Now come on don't ask silly questions like that.

Each Party calls the other Party for not doing what the set out to do 

why don't each party stop calling the other one and say honestly what they will do.

One of our Party's say's it's going to clamp down on shoplifting now don't quote me but most people now shop on the internet, (was in Nottm to day there was very few people shopping)They say the other party has broken the criminal justice system? this is the first time I have heard about it.

Retirement is going up again Why don't they start training young people for employment and give them a decent wage? then people who want to retire can and have some life left to enjoy. Not all youngsters want to go on to UNI. To quote yasser Gis a job. 

The NHS could do with a good shake up who ever wins elections? more people are getting older and need help and care THEN GIVE MORE TRAINING TO THESE WORKERS  AND A DECENT WAGE 

Well this is me can you answer any of my questions please without calling any of the other parties?

[Oztalgian 3,330]

Our ex-Prime Minister, Scott Morrison has admitted that he took medication for severe anxiety whilst he was in office.

He explained "how his faith had intersected with his time as leader" (what does that mean) and that the toll of the job had worn on him and that his waves of anxiety had become acute.

As arguably the worst Prime Minister Australia has ever had. I can assure him that he caused endless anxiety to countless millions of Australians who lost their faith in him and his Liberal (Conservative) government with their endless rorts and waste of public money. The deliberate policies of grinding the less well off in our society further into the dirt were nothing short of scandalous. Their automated "Robodebt" debt recovery system and pursuit of people that were alleged to have been overpaid by our social security system was bordering on criminality. He won't get much sympathy from many Australians.

[Stuart.C 493]

Mary, yes there was a consultation to see if the Notts / Derbys residents wanted to join forces and have single East Midlands Mayor.
 

A public consultation on East Midlands devolution, carried out between November 2022 and January 2023, showed strong support for the plans among local residents, businesses and community groups.

 

There were 4,869 responses to the consultation overall, from members of the public and people answering on behalf of an organisation. The number of responses was higher than similar consultations on devolution in other areas.

 

[mary1947 2,089]

Thank you Stuart.C    it must be me as i did not know any thing the consultation. How many people live in Derby / Derbyshire / Nottingham / Nottingham / according to the figure quoted bout 5,000  Don't get me wrong Stuart but I do find it hard to belive that I never heard anything about it.

[Stuart.C 493]

This is what I posted on this Political thread in February this year, Page 125, when the subject came up,,
 

I was aware of talk of proposals for the East Midlands amalgamation and now assume that I must have thought that others, not the residents would be making the decision.

I must have been asleep between November 2022 and Jan 2023 as I don't remember any mention or any contact by anyone or by letter of any link to the consultation website, which I've just found.

Obviously the Have your say section has now been disabled / removed.

https://www.eastmidlandsdevolution.co.uk/

 

(page now completely changed)

 

 

[Brew 5,425]

Read the report fully and it turns out that the vote for an overarching authority of governance and a  single mayor did NOT gain a majority..

The vote was 43% for - 45% against, something they chose to ignore.

 

The hierarchy will be:

 

East Midlands Combined County Authority - 1

The city councils - 2

The county councils - 2

The district/borough councils - 15

The town councils - 351

The parish councils...  ??

 

There will soon be more chiefs than indians.

 

It was mentioned as Stuart says on Pages 110 and 125.

 

My view is that with so few aware and even fewer voting it was not a shining example of the will of the people -  it's just another display of the contempt our leaders have.

[Oztalgian 3,330]

I have said before on here that one of the reasons I left the UK in 1975 was the absolute stupidity and sheer bloody mindedness of the leading trade unions at the time. I was never a real supporter of them as I saw what they did in the auto and the coal industries. Here I am 50 years on and am a staunch advocate of sensible and properly led unions. I watch with amazement at how 14 years of Conservative governments has progressively destroyed the very fabric of the UK for its political mates.

Australia went down the same track with the Liberal/National (Conservative) coalition forming government at the Federal level for all but 7 years since 1996. It is now coming to light that many large multinational companies have been significantly underpaying many of their lowest payed employees. They all claim it was errors in payroll systems. I am a firm believer that whilst there is even the remotest chance of a Conservative government being re-elected next year that everyone should be in a "union" to help protect their hard won gains as the Conservatives have said they are going to unwind many of the initiatives that the current Labor government have brought in.

With that though I leave you with this. A great song but not to me what unions should be about.

Turn the volume up to max

 

[DJ360 6,733]

I have always believed in Trade Unions.  How else are ordinary workers meant to protect their interests and avoid exploitation? Employers and Govts can band together.. but seemingly not ordinary workers. Rather odd don't you think?

It has been patently obvious throughout history that many employers and business leaders will do anything to increase profits and more to the pooint, hold on to political/economic power, including exploiting workers.

 

I am not here to defend any of the more 'lunatic' union tactics and leaders..but a few 'bad apples', such as 'Red Robbo' and . yes Scargill, in no way negate the worth of the vast majority of Trade Union members and officials.

 

I was a rep for NALGO and then its successor UNISON,  until health issues forced me to give up everything ( including Union Work, Youth Work, Labour Party work and Local Council work) which I was doing for bugger all..on top of a full time job.

I have always been mystified that so many otherwise rational workers have been 'anti union', despite owerwhelming evidence that their employers are in 'cahoots' with certain political parties in efforts to 'keep them down'.

As often.. I blame both the Daily Mail.. and the dummies who read it.

[letsavagoo 964]

7 hours ago, DJ360 said:

As often.. I blame both the Daily Mail.. and the dummies who read it.

I don’t read the Mail but because it has a different viewpoint to you I think your statement that it’s ‘dummies’ read it is rather disingenuous to those that do. 
More popular with women apparently and there may be some Daily Mail readers, seeing your post who object to be called dummies by inference.

Wikipedia 2022 - Complete list of categories

Business and finance journalist of the year, Campaign of the year, Cartoonist of the year, Columnist of the year, Critic of the year, Environment journalist of the year, Excellence in diversity award, Feature writer of the year, Foreign reporter of the year, Front page of the year, Health journalist of the year, Interviewer of the year, Investigation of the year, News podcast of the year, News website of the year, Newspaper of the year, Photographer of the year, Political journalist of the year, Science and technology journalist of the year, Scoop of the year, Specialist journalist of the year, Supplement of the year, The Hugh McIlvanney Award for Sports journalist of the year, Travel journalist of the year and lastly; Young journalist of the year.^[21]

[Oztalgian 3,330]

8 hours ago, DJ360 said:

As often.. I blame both the Daily Mail.. and the dummies who read it.

By that comment am I to take it that the Daily Mail is a right-wing newspaper?

On the odd times I have read the online version it seems to be obsessed with the spare and his wife, other second rate celebrities and who is up who and not paid for it and lowest common denominator sensationalism.

What is a good left-wing newspaper to get an alternate viewpoint, and which one has a centrist stand?

[philmayfield 6,193]

I suppose the Guardian is the central/leftist newspaper. I must admit I’ve never read it! We take the Times. It isn’t overtly right wing and has a cross section of political opinions. The Daily Mail is more of a ‘fun’, easy reading paper. I only read it on my occasional visits to the barber’s. I think the Sun is the favourite on the building sites! My wife collects our paper from a box in the village and the favourites seem to be the Times and the Telegraph (which I find a bit stuffy) plus the odd Guardian. Always the Newark Advertiser on a Thursday which is rubbish!

[Brew 5,425]

9 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I have always believed in Trade Unions.  How else are ordinary workers meant to protect their interests and avoid exploitation? Employers and Govts can band together.. but seemingly not ordinary workers. Rather odd don't you think?

Before I became a member I strongly objected to unions and their political contributions to a party I didn't support, but mostly I objected to the 'closed shop' system. I've always been somewhat recalcitrant by nature and it really went against the grain.

The likes of Red Robbo, Jack Dash and other members of the communist party were to my mind out of control and I was more than pleased when Robb's own members rebelled against him.

Scargill I would not count amongst them. He was never the brightest flower in the bunch and much of what he said I disbelieved or disagreed with; it was only later I came to see that most of his claims were actually true.

 

Trade unions have historically proved their worth, but in many ways became victims of their own success. It's a pity the likes of Bezos and Astley along with ever increasing government control are creating a need for unions again.

 

I'm in agreement with Lets here and the disparaging remarks vis a vis Mali reader is unworthy of you.

[Brew 5,425]

1 hour ago, Oztalgian said:

What is a good left-wing newspaper to get an alternate viewpoint, and which one has a centrist stand?

There is no such thing as an unbiased  or 'centrist' newspaper.

 

The Times and the Telegraph lead for the right, the Guardian is on the left. The i , newspaper of the year, makes a reasonable job of balance and is usually well written but again a little to the left. The Morning Star is communist, so far left.

The Daily Mirror and The Sun were always Labour papers but seem to have lost their way in recent years.

The only other left wing papers are far left and little more than anti-establishment rants.

The Mail will write about anything providing they can couple it to adverts so their 2.18 million dummies can stay abreast of the latest celeb carry-ons.

The Mail claim more than half their readership is from the ABC demographic and its website has more than 200 million visitors a month. They can't all be wrong - can they?

[Cliff Ton 10,483]

When people say a newspaper is 'biased' what they're often actually saying is that the newspaper expresses opinions which they don't agree with.

 

Likewise a 'good' newspaper is one which reinforces their existing views.

[Oztalgian 3,330]

On 4/26/2024 at 2:26 AM, DJ360 said:

In my early days in the Careers Service I was required to put in a simple monthly 'stat', detailing how many Guidance Interviews, Groupwork Sessions, Employer Visits etc., I had done. 

Whilst working for a government department as part of our reporting we had to report weekly on how many phone calls we had received requesting assistance or industry information. As I was on the road a lot I could not/did not bother to keep accurate numbers for the weekly report. I wrote a spread sheet that automatically generated a report based on a seed number between 1 and 1000. Every Friday afternoon when staff were running around like headless chooks trying to finalise their reports I used to ask anyone passing to pick a number between 1 and 1000 and then wander over to the printer to pick up my report. Of course it was all bullsh*t, no one ever checked it or queried any of the information it was just a box ticking exercise that the public service is so fond of.

[Oztalgian 3,330]

On 4/20/2024 at 11:35 PM, DJ360 said:

I'm presently just standing back and looking on in bewilderment at politics everywhere.

I am pretty much the same DJ.

I came across this article by a Liberal (Conservative) Senator,(our upper house) where he claims that the Prime Minister (Labor)has authorised a manual on "How to Keep Secrets" that should be made public.

It is only a short article and well worth a read. Is this what we have come to in politics?

SIMON BIRMINGHAM: PM must explain Labor’s attempt to keep information hidden | The Nightly

[Oztalgian 3,330]

On 4/26/2024 at 10:57 PM, Brew said:

Read the report fully and it turns out that the vote for an overarching authority of governance and a  single mayor did NOT gain a majority..

The vote was 43% for - 45% against, something they chose to ignore.

I see in data issued by yet another new government agency (yet more public servants to think up more forms to fill in) called the Office for Local Government "OFLOG" that Nottingham City Council has recorded the worst results in the country. The data measures how the councils have performed in the following categories/functions.

Finance, Waste, Planning, Roads and Social Care

Labour run Nottingham City Council was ranked overall lowest, 318, in the country and was in the bottom 5% for waste management, financial management and roads. The bottom 25% for planning and the lower 40% for social care.

Other Nottinghamshire councils ranked as follows :-

Ashfield (Ind) ranked 210

Bassetlaw (Lab) ranked 229

Broxtowe (Lab) ranked 184

Gedling (Lab) ranked 96

Mansfield (Lab) ranked 231

Newark and Sherwood (NOC) ranked 136

Rushcliffe (Con) ranked 15 and number 1 in financial management.

 

Regardless of your political persuasion the data, if accurate, somewhat supports the Conservative claim that Labour just cannot manage.

[Brew 5,425]

Good catch Oz, I'd never heard of 'Oflog'.