How's your day?

[DJ360 6,730]

Looks like the 1930s Humber and Hercules bikes are both carrying Carbide Lamps.

 

As far as I know, they are still available for cavers to use underground.  I still have one in my garage.  They were a little heavy on the front of a helmet, but lighter overall than carrying a miner's type Oldham battery pack etc., and enough carbide for days of use could easily be carried, whereas a battery lamp would barely last much more than 12 hours.

 

Continental Cavers came up with the rather better idea of carrying the carbide/water 'gas generator' part on their belt, with a tube to carry the gas to a burner/reflector on the cap.

 

Although still used by cavers, I believe Carbide Lamps and Miners type battery lamps are being superceded by modern battery powered LED lamps.

[Brew 5,417]

Are the caving carbide lamps flameproof as per the Davy lamp?

[plantfit 7,597]

No Brew, they need the ventilation to work, Davy lamps have a very fine gauze around the open ends which prevents the flame being exposed to the outside, 

 

Rog

[DJ360 6,730]

One of the first things you needed to learn.. and remember.. about using a Carbide Lamp for Caving was that you had a naked flame on the front of your head. There was no glass lens etc., in front. It never occurred to me to wonder why, but in general use there was no need.  Also, the type of lamp in common use when I was actively caving, had a small 'flintwheel' type 'striker' built into the alloy reflector, for relighting the flame when necessary. The usual method was to cup the hand over the reflector to allow a build up of gas, then smartly move the hand away sideways, catching the flintwheel in the process. Success would be indicated by a loud 'pop' as the flame re-lit. In some cave chambers or passages, that 'pop' could become a tremendous 'BOOM'..out of all proportion to what was actually happening.

 

The acetylene gas liberated from the calcium carbide 'fuel', when water is dripped onto it.. burns brilliant white in air..and though not as hot as an oxy-acetylene flame, is very capable of burning things. This can include the rope on which you are dangling, when abseiling down a 'pitch', or 'prussiking' up a pitch. 'Prussiking' is a way of using either a couple of loops of rope,correctly knotted around your main rope.. or a mechanical device, to climb up a single rope. (This was famously, if somewhat ridiculously demonstrated in one of the Bond films, where he found himself dangling from a rope by one hand, or his teeth, or whatever.. and used his shoelaces to make 'prussik loops' and climb up. Whilst not as strong as a main rope, the pair of Prussik loops we tended to carry in case of emergency, were very much stronger than shoelaces...)

 

So...when ropes improved and there was an increase in the popularity of 'Single Rope Techniques' or.. SRT, as opposed to the more traditional method involving lightweight rope ladders and safety ropes... the potential for 'unfortunate' side effects from using SRT and Carbide together was quickly recognised...

 

It was very well illustrated by no less than the famous Blue Peter presenter John Noakes, when he made a film of himself going caving. The cave chosen was Alum Pot, not far from the Ribblehead Viaduct in Yorks.  A friend of mine was one of the cavers who took him on the trip.  Apparently the first thing was that Noakes handed over Shep the dog to my pal.. "He He.. you can't come Shep.. Ian here will keep yer cumpany".. He handed Shep over, whereupon..off camera.. the poor dog was chucked into the back of a van and Ian joined the 'underground' party...

 

There are a number of ways of descending Alum Pot, which is a huge, open 'Daylight Pot'. You can go in directly over the side..with ladders and/or ropes.. or via the 'classic' route, through Lower Long Churn Cave, emerging onto a ledge part way down the pot.. (I've done that.. but that's another story) or via the 'Diccan Pot Route'.  A passage off the Long Churn complex brings you to a sudden vertical drop off of well over 100 feet depth, followed by a series of further drops until you emerge at the very bottom of Alum Pot, by a sort of 'back door' route. It's a serious undertaking..

 

So anyway.. Noakes had abseiled part way down the first Diccan 'pitch' when he declared 'He he.. ahh can smell burnin' and had to be very loudly and urgently 'encouraged', to turn his head, and his carbide lamp, away from the rope he was dangling on.  I don't think that bit made the TV 'cut'.

 

On the lamp below, the top part is a water reservoir, and you can just about see a wire which can be moved around on top to regulate the water feed to the calcium carbide lumps, which sit in the bottom chamber. The resulting acetylene gas emerges from the nozzle front and centre of the reflector and is lit by a spark from the flint wheel. A simple, but very effective device.

 

 

 

 

[Brew 5,417]

Interesting, I had visions of a naked flame underground producing something a tad more dramatic than a 'pop'.

[DJ360 6,730]

Not recommended for coal mines Jim, but if limestone caves have any sort of problems with their atmosphere.. it tends to be more along the lines of CO2 build up in poorly vented locations.  Most caves exhibit some sort of airflow, ranging from abarely perceptible, to near howling gales, such as found in Pen Y Ghent Pot.

 

Quote

British Cave Research Association
10 Speleology 3, September 2003
Carbon Dioxide in Limestone Caves
and its Effect on Cavers
There are increasingly frequent reports of ‘foul air’ – an excess of carbon dioxide and
reduced oxygen – in caves. Garry K. Smith describes the problem and how to deal with it.
This article is a condensed version of
previously-published papers by Garry K. Smith of
the Newcastle and Hunter Valley Speleological
Society, Australia. Although written from his
Australian perspective, the problem of CO 2 build-
up is increasingly being seen in UK caves.
A list of UK further reading is given at the end
of the article.
Introduction
Foul air, sometimes called ‘bad air’, is
an atmosphere which has a noticeable,
abnormal physiological effect on humans.
In limestone caves, foul air can be
described as air containing more than
0.5% carbon dioxide (CO2) and/or less
than 18% oxygen (O 2) by volume. As a
comparison, normal air contains approxi-
mately 0.03% CO2 and 21% O2 by
volume. There are isolated caves that
contain other gases such as methane,
ammonia, hydrogen sulphide or carbon
monoxide, but these gases are generally
rare in limestone caves. Although not a
significant problem in the majority of caves
around the world, those containing foul air
may become death traps for cavers not
familiar with the signs and symptoms of
the gases involved.
An elevated CO2 concentration is
usually the most life-threatening foul-air
scenario found within limestone caves.
This colourless, odourless and non-
combustible gas is the body’s regulator of
the breathing function. In industry the
maximum safe working level recom-
mended for an 8-hour working day is 0.5%
(5000 ppm by volume; Australian regula-
tions). A concentration of 10% or greater
can cause respiratory paralysis and death
within a few minutes.
To the novice caver, their first
encounter with foul air is often a frighten-
ing experience. Typically there is no smell
or visual sign and the first physiological
effects are increased pulse and breathing
rates. Higher concentrations of CO2 lead to
clumsiness, severe headaches, dizziness
and even death. Experienced foul-air
cavers may notice a dry acidic taste in their
mouth, but the average caver may not
notice this effect.
How CO 2 Gets Into Caves
CO2 enters caves by several methods,
each of which has a bearing on the gas
ratio composition of the cave atmosphere
and its variation from that of the above-
ground atmosphere. The two main
methods by which CO 2 gets into caves are:
x CO2 is absorbed by the ground water
as it passes through surface soil con-
taining high concentrations of the gas,
due to the decay of vegetation. This
water percolates through the rock strata
and enters the cave system, usually
taking part in the calcite deposition
cycle. In this instance the addition of
extra CO2 to the cave atmosphere
displaces O2 and nitrogen (N 2).
x CO2 may be a by-product of organic
and micro-organism metabolism or
respiration by fauna such as bats or
humans. The oxygen concentration is
simply reduced in proportion to the
increase in CO2, while the N2
concentration stays constant.
Even though carbon dioxide is 1.57
times as dense as nitrogen and 1.38 times
as dense as oxygen, it will have a tendency
to disperse in an isolated volume of air
owing to gaseous diffusion. In other words
a mixture of gases will not separate into
layers of different-density gas if they are
left for a long time in a still chamber.
Foul air is often encountered in pockets
at the lower sections of deep caves where
there are no active streams and air move-
ment is minimal. Notwithstanding the
comments made above about mixing,
frequently there appears to be a definite
boundary between good air and foul air,
with a noticeable elevation in CO2
concentration in the latter. In caves
containing foul air, on numerous occasions
I have experienced these invisible
boundaries within a transition zone of less
than one metre. Often there isn’t a gradual
transition in air quality as one might expect
if dispersion of the gases were occurring at
a relatively fast rate.
A possible explanation of the high
concentration of CO2 in some deep caves
with a relatively still atmosphere is that
CO2 is being produced metabolically or
entering the cave via ground water at a
greater rate than the gas can diffuse into
the cave atmosphere, thus settling at the
bottom of the cave because it is a relatively
dense gas (Smith, G. K., 1997a).
This build-up of CO2 is more prevalent
in deep caves, but it can also be found in
some shallow caves with a vertical range of
less than 10 metres. A very still cave
atmosphere may allow CO 2 to sink to (or
remain at its origin in) the deepest part of
the cave where it displaces O2 and N 2, thus
allowing CO2 to build up at the lowest
point. An example of this would be Suicide
Hole Cave at Crawney Pass, New South
Wales, which has a vertical range of
approximately six metres and contains a
high concentration of CO2 in the bottom
two metres of cave passages. The CO 2 can
be attributed to metabolic processes in a
large number of fine tree roots in a passage
just above the foul air.



Carbon dioxide when treated with
respect is no worse than the other dangers
in caves. Despite the possible dangers,
caving is still safer than driving a motor
vehicle, which most of us take for granted.
The best advice is ‘If in doubt, get out’.
 

 

Sorry about the format Jim.. but you did ask.... and I deleted a load of detail and References at the end. CO2 seems to be a bigger problem in Australian caves than UK. I cant say I ever encountered it.

[Beekay 5,145]

For anybody interested and not watching...England ladies are winning 3-0 @ half time, ( 1 disallowed goal). 

 

Edit. Sorry, didn't realise Oz had already posted result. ( But he is our man in the action).

[Brew 5,417]

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

nd I deleted a load of detail and References at the end

 Read it and most makes sense though glad of the editing. I'm mostly ok underground - until I'm not. Squeeze through a gap needing me to be laying down I suddenly remember it's quite important I'm somewhere else.

[letsavagoo 963]

I went caving once in the early 80’s. The head lights were all miners type battery head lamps with a waist mounted battery pack that was a nuisance. No sign of acetylene lamps at all. I really enjoyed it but I was working long hours, anti social shifts including weekends so never went again. I’ve no idea where it was but it was wet and cold.

[DJ360 6,730]

Caves tend to be cold and wet and generally stay at broadly the same temperature all year round since they are surrounded by what is in effect a gigantic 'storage radiator' of rock.

I favoured a one piece wetsuit. 6 mm neoprene. I made it myself from a kit after sending off my measurements to a kit supplier. The beauty of a wetsuit is that it keeps you warm even when wet, once you've gasped as the first lot of cold water finds its way in.  Wetsuits are also of minimal bulk and when lubricated by mud and water can help you to squeeze through tight openings.

On the other hand, if you find yourself working hard in a dry passage, it doesn't take long to work up a sweat.

Emerging from the relative warmth of a cave onto snow covered moors clad only in a wetsuit can be a bit challenging.

For some reason.. it looks like 'drysuits' are more popular now.

[letsavagoo 963]

I can’t recall what I wore but it was just ordinary fabric clothing. I was jus a taster session. I recall the water was icy, talk about gasp. I hate cold and I n ordinary clothing very unpleasant. I’ve had wetsuits when I used to dive and canoe but that was years later. I’ve never heard of diy kit wet suits and didn’t know they were available. I always fancied a dry suit but never got one. 

[DJ360 6,730]

I think the wetsuit company was called Aquaquipment.

You took measurements as advised by them and they  sent a sheet of neoprene with the pattern marked out on the lining fabric. You cut out the bits and glued the edges together  with neoprene cement. Then taped the outside of all joints and stitched the liner fabric at stress points. It worked well.

[nonnaB 4,895]

On 7/28/2023 at 5:46 PM, philmayfield said:

It’s available on Amazon.

Plus import duty

[nonnaB 4,895]

Barrie you’ll be pleased I’ve sorted out in my mind what exactly the microwave cum oven is. I think with your description I imagined something quite different so no wonder they don’t make them here

Anyway we’ve got one on order so we’re waiting for a telephone call to tell us it’s arrived. They told us Thursday but it will probably arrive before. It’s called MW but it’s a combination cooker plus steam cooking. Reviews are good so let’s hope it lives up to its name. We’ve only been without MW a few days and it’s amazing , you don’t think you’d miss one but today we needed one to defrost some sardines for a plate of pasta. So it’s pasta with aubergines. ( no we don’t have pasta every day, I have stopped eating meat )I love pasta though because it is so versatile.My husband like his father could eat it for breakfast , lunch and dinner. I draw the line at that.

[nonnaB 4,895]

 

Looks exactly like a large MW

[Beekay 5,145]

Hi Nonna, as we are needing a replacement microwave, I've been looking at a few. Didn't know there is one that steams. I've seen some that are m.w and grill, so you can cook foods or toast under an element in the top, or just use the magnetron  as a conventional m.w

Think I'll just be getting a standard two dial 700 watt model as Tina is a total technophobe, (she's only just managed to read texts on her phone). I've done all the cooking since purchasing our airfryers.

[benjamin1945 16,160]

Went to Bulwell this morning....just for sumat different  lol........

Glad i did.....served by my favourite waitress in Kirkby for breakfast........then my other favourite for Espresso in Bulwell...who it seems i knew her Grandma back in the 60s?.....

Then whilst enjoying 'jeromes' was joined by my oldest friend who ive known since 1948 when i was 3 and he was six.....we did it all together when growing up......Football...Cricket...Scrumping...courting.......even worked together for a while.....so naturally had a good Reminisce ........

             After that had another encounter with an old school friend from the 50s....the school Goalie at Henry Whipple...looked as if he could still save a penalty or two.............must get to Bulwell more often.......

[Cliff Ton 10,466]

I reckon you've become a bit of a minor celebrity there.

 

People are deliberately going to Bulwell to see you........like they go to London to see Piccadilly Circus.

[benjamin1945 16,160]

Thanks Kev.......lol

[MargieH 7,600]

@Cliff Ton  Picadilly is a very appropriate landmark as the statue of Eros is in the centre!

[mary1947 2,079]

CF FROM PREVIOUS POSTS

Latest saga on cooker from currys (no worries Currys)

I got so fedup  of being p  sorry messed around every one saying it was not there problem, that i sent an email to chief executive and just told him about cooker. On Aug 1st we were told to go to the currys where we had the cooker from and pick a new one, Did as was orded had same cooker as could not see any other then the bomb shell  waitng to see if we get any stock in of said cooker on 4th Aug if the stock as not arrived then the next date will be 25th Aug ?????

[LizzieM 9,507]

I don’t know about ‘How’s Your Day’, more like how’s ‘Your Past Week or So’ for me.  
Last Wednesday while in Lilliput, Dorset, my husband was working on a project and asked me what the passcode was on his phone …. a passcode he’s used for years.  Bit odd I thought.  Next day we were about to drive the 200 miles home and he insisted he was going to drive, although I was not happy about it.  We got back safely thank goodness, fell out a few times when I commented on his driving though.  We’d returned to Nottingham because he’d got an echo-cardio gram booked for last Saturday due to re-occurrence of Atrial Fibrillation  (which had been  completely cured 20 years ago by a top consultant in Harley Street.) Then on Monday morning our GP rang and said he’d got an MRI brain scan at City Hospital at 7pm that evening, probably when she’d seen the report from the ‘echo’ .  I drove him there (Monday eve) , and after the scan I was told I must take him directly to A & E at QMC, no nipping home for a toothbrush, just straight there!  He was having an ‘active stroke’  

Well QMC A & E waiting area was an education, I won’t enlarge on that but I think most of you will know what I mean, but within an hour my husband was on the Stroke Ward.  A nurse asked if he’d prefer a side room and I spoke for him.  ….. Yes please!    He was monitored for almost 24 hours and the consultant said he could be discharged, when the hospital pharmacy had brought his prescription up to the Ward.  That took 6 hours!  We got home at gone 11pm.  Physically he didn’t look as if he should be on the Stroke Ward, he was walking about and looked ok but his memory is foggy.  Meantime he’s got me to get an appointment with the cardiologist in Harley Street again but the guy at QMC said he’s too old to have an ablation like 20 years ago.  We’ll have to see.  Wish me luck, it’s not easy right now! 

[plantfit 7,597]

Sorry to read this about your husband Lizzie and I wish him well but I can't help wondering why you seem to have no faith in "The GUY" at the QMC but you do in" The CARDIOLOGIST" in Harley street who probably received the same training as each other at medical school and for all intents and purposes share the same medical notes on your husband via a computer,

 

Rog

[benjamin1945 16,160]

Oh Dear Lizzie.........sad to hear about your 'Hubby's'' problems.....will be thinking about you...and wish him a quick recovery........x

[mary1947 2,079]

Lizzie I feel for you !!! but you are strong so he will have a lot of help. I do hope your hubbie is OK  Please keep us posted as when we all are at the meetups we are just like a large family your problem /Illness/anything  is our problem  we are all thinking about you.