Anything Political

[DJ360 6,733]

1 hour ago, Stavertongirl said:

I personally think that labours problem has always been Mr Corbyn to be honest and no matter what policies they put forward he was always the stumbling block. He gave me the impression of being a ditherer trying to please all people all of the time and avoiding making a decision. He just didn’t look like a prime minister in waiting.

No doubt DJ360 will put me right on this!
I wonder now if remainer MPs will accept we are leaving and help to get the best deal we can or just whinge from the sidelines?

 

Stav. You may be surprised to hear that I don't disagree with you about the image portrayed by Corbyn.  I do think he's fundamentally honest though.. which is more than can be said for Johnson. I didn't vote for Corbyn.  I voted for Labour principles over Tory dishonesty.

 

I don't think your last sentence reflects reality.  Parliament has not blocked Brexit and in that sense has accepted that we are leaving.  I've accepted it too.. though I don't like it and I think it's a huge mistake, voted for an the basis of ignorance and false info.  Parliament has simply sought to prevent the leaders of what was a minority Tory Govt... from taking us out of the EU either with No Deal. or a lousy deal.  Johnson could still do that...

[philmayfield 6,144]

You’ve got to face the fact that Corbyn and his left wing ideology lost the election for Labour. They need to make their way back to being a social democratic middle of the road party to gain any credibility. They are trying to blame their failure on Brexit when Corbyn and his rabid left wing are the true culprits.

[DJ360 6,733]

1 hour ago, philmayfield said:

You won’t admit defeat will you Col? 

 

I've done so.  But this is not a football match we're talking about. Winning a football match is the objective.  Winning an election is just the first step in imposing your will on everybody.  This is the future of people's lives, their health and prosperity.  I accept the result.  I don't have to accept the coming catastrophe.

[DJ360 6,733]

1 hour ago, philmayfield said:

You’ve got to face the fact that Corbyn and his left wing ideology lost the election for Labour. They need to make their way back to being a social democratic middle of the road party to gain any credibility. They are trying to blame their failure on Brexit when Corbyn and his rabid left wing are the true culprits.

 

 

There's much truth in that.  But.. I thnk you have to admit that if Labour were transformed into angelic superheroes with the power to fix everything for everybody... with no downside.. the British press would still invent lies to discredit them.

I'm also constantly amused that Corbyn's relatively traditional Labour is portrayed as 'Hard Left' .. yet Johnson and Farage, Rees-Mogg et. al. are rarely, if ever, 'called out' on their downright malicious far right policies.

 

There is no balance in the UK press, and precious little in the BBC

[Waddo 921]

49 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

I don't have to accept the coming catastrophe.

Unless you're in a position to map out the future, unfortunately, you do. I respect your views, but you need to also respect other people's and the folks that voted for Boris obviously believe in him. Only time will tell.  I have only voted for whoever promised to do the best, and in all my years, have been let down by both parties. I, personally don't think that any party can solve all the issues. Or as they say, you can't please all the people all the time!!

[philmayfield 6,144]

The problem with Corbyn is that he is unable to make a decision. It continues now that he can’t make a decision on his resignation. He needs ‘a period of contemplation’. Gawd help us!

[DJ360 6,733]

Well obviously I'm stuck with the result as I said, and by implication I have to respect the views of those who voted.  The fact that I'm not out there fomenting armed resistance or whatever demonstrates that I am a democrat first and a socialist second.  But as I pointed out to Phil upthread.. winning, or losing an election is not the end of it because politics is a never ending struggle.

 

In the end, as I've said many times on here.. Politics is ultimately any process of human interaction which determines who gets what.  Elections and Party Politics are just the formal expressions of that.

 

But since that is my understanding of Politics as an activity, I have no doubt that there are those at both extremes, who want it all.  The Rees-Moggs and Banks's at one extreme and the loony left (Far to the left of Labour) at the other.  I will try to stop them both as long as I draw breath.

[Brew 5,422]

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

 

Drivel

 

Now now Col it's one mans opinion and although extreme making  derogatory comments serves no purpose.  

 

49 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

I thnk you have to admit that if Labour were transformed into angelic superheroes with the power to fix everything for everybody... with no downside.. the British press would still invent lies to discredit them.

 

As suppositions go that's a bit of a leap.

 

52 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

I'm also constantly amused that Corbyn's relatively traditional Labour is portrayed as 'Hard Left' .. yet Johnson and Farage, Rees-Mogg et. al. are rarely, if ever, 'called out' on their downright malicious far right policies.

 

I and I suspect many others consider Corbyn to be about as far left as he can be without taking the title of commissar. McDonnell and the shadowy Momentum are unashamedly 'far left' along with everyone's favourite hypocrite and racist Dianne Abbot.

 

A quick Google returns hundreds of web pages that acknowledge Johnson et al. as you describe with the exception of the term 'malicious', many of them British newspapers.

 

 

[HSR 286]

 

15 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I will take it on the chin and carry on.  I may even stand for local council again.  I

 

Does Elvis & the bus pass party still stand in Nottingham East?

Has to be one of the safest Labour seat's in the Midlands.

 

 

[letsavagoo 963]

Labour had a number of issues with Corbyn being the main one. 
Whether it’s real, perceived or exaggerated anti semitism was an issue for many. 

Dithering and not upholding Brexit for many traditional Labour voters. They didn’t want a people’s vote. They’d had one in 2016.

Whether it’s real, perceived or exaggerated Corbyn’s support for terrorists.
His weak stance on defence. Honourable in theory but not practical in the real world at present.

How do you think the result would have gone if Corbyn had said he’d get Brexit done. 

[Stuart.C 491]

1 hour ago, HSR said:

 

 

Does Elvis & the bus pass party still stand in Nottingham East?

Has to be one of the safest Labour seat's in the Midlands.

 

 

 

Only conventional parties stood.

 

South, Labour double the vote of Cons but 7% down

East, Labour 3 times Cons but 7% down

North, Labour 1.5 times Cons but 11% down.

 

So yes still quite safe for Labour

[DJ360 6,733]

53 minutes ago, HSR said:

 

 

Do Elvis & the bus pass party still stand in Nottingham East?

Has to be one of the safest Labour seat's in the Midlands.

 

 

 

 

What has Nottm East to do with me?

[catfan 14,793]

1 hour ago, HSR said:

 

 

Do Elvis & the bus pass party still stand in Nottingham East?

Has to be one of the safest Labour seat's in the Midlands.

 

No not this time. Speaking as a Nottm East resident. 

 

[Stavertongirl 1,719]

6 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I don't think your last sentence reflects reality.  Parliament has not blocked Brexit and in that sense has accepted that we are leaving.

I do get the feeling some, perhaps not all, would do anything to stop it. 

[Stuart.C 491]

Gina Millar hasn't finished yet

 

 

 

[DJ360 6,733]

9 hours ago, Brew said:

 

Now now Col it's one mans opinion and although extreme making  derogatory comments serves no purpose.  

 

 

As suppositions go that's a bit of a leap.

 

 

I and I suspect many others consider Corbyn to be about as far left as he can be without taking the title of commissar. McDonnell and the shadowy Momentum are unashamedly 'far left' along with everyone's favourite hypocrite and racist Dianne Abbot.

 

A quick Google returns hundreds of web pages that acknowledge Johnson et al. as you describe with the exception of the term 'malicious', many of them British newspapers.

 

 

 

Ok Jim!! I surrender!!  Yes, you are right. As ever, your monitoring of site etiquette is spot on and it was remiss of me to be so scathing.  I will re-visit the post and respond in more gentlemanly fashion.

 

Whatever we all say about Corbyn.. there's  no way that the use of terms like 'Commissar' etc., are appropriate.  Call him all you like, but he has always operated within the confines of the UK parliamentary democratic system, and I'll say again that it is Johnson.. not Corbyn, who plans to change the Parliamentary system to his advantage.

 

What was your Google search term? Sorry.. but Google all you like and it doesn't alter the fact that the UK right wing press has deliberately targeted Cornyn and lied incessantly about him.  On a TV prog tonight, a number of right wing/Tory figures were told to their faces that the UK has an almost exclusively Right Wing press, much of it owned by foreign residents.  Not one of them challenged that opinion. 

[DJ360 6,733]

6 hours ago, Stuart.C said:

Gina Millar hasn't finished yet

 

 

 

 

Your source?

And your point?

[DJ360 6,733]

12 hours ago, Alpha said:

To those Members' of Parliament who were openly antagonistic and placed conspiratorial obstructions to wreck the referendum result, I would suggest that they have, by their betrayal, been served with their just deserts.

 

These betrayers have, arrogantly and without remorse of conscience, disregarded the electorates' decision to leave the EU.

 

As this conspiracy sought to openly undermine the will of the people should be considered not just undemocratic but a treasonable act.

 

Benn, Starmer, and Letwin, (Con) amongst others should be considered as enemies of the state and dismissed to obscurity.  

 

 

Ok, I withdraw my response that your post is 'Drivel'..and instead:

 

Quote

To those Members' of Parliament who were openly antagonistic and placed conspiratorial obstructions to wreck the referendum result, I would suggest that they have, by their betrayal, been served with their just deserts.

 

Many, me included, were openly critical of the Referendum.. its origins, its conduct , the lies promulgated by the 'Leave' campaign, etc.  Parliament's role in this has been to scrutinise Govt.  This has been Parliament's Role for hundreds of years and you seek to disrupt it at your peril.  While both May, and Johnson had only minority Govts, it was entirely legitimate for Parliament..to refuse to be railroaded by it.

Parliament has protected you from Dictators for hundreds of years.    You should value that.

 

Quote

These betrayers have, arrogantly and without remorse of conscience, disregarded the electorates' decision to leave the EU.

 

This is simply untrue.  As I am almost sick of saying.. nobody has 'blocked' Brexit. Parliament approved the Referendum, voted for the enactment of Article 50 etc.  The only thing at issue is what Brexit actually means.. because Cameron did not spell this out.. and it is therefore quite legitimate for Parliament to debate this.  In fact I'd say it is necessary..as Camoron left us without instructions and ran away.  It is even more legitimate for Parliament to refuse to allow a MINORITY Govt. to bulldoze through its own version of Brexit. 

 

As for Treason.  Google it and you'll find that it usually means what its supporters want it to mean.  There is no universal definition.

 

So.. just as an example, I could state that the Daily Mail labelling our judges as 'Enemies of the People', was treasonous because it undermined our legal system.

 

I could equally argue that Johnson committed Treason by lying to the Queen in order to justify his proroguing of Parliament.  Surely lying to the Queen is Treason?  Liz 1 would have had his head surgically removed from his body.

 

I'm once again drawn to repeating H.L.Mencken's astute observation. 'To every complex problem.. there is a solution which is clear, simple and wrong.'

 

Brexit.. as it was presented to the UK electorate, was not clear and not simple. 

[Brew 5,422]

All I entered  was "Is Johnson far right"'

 

There were attacks on both leaders. Your view of the BBC has taken a knock after the Andrew Marr / Johnson show had over 12,000 complaints about his anti-Johnson attitude.. Not too sure about the lies though.

 

Johnson is not the only one who wants parliamentary reform. Labour has in the past proposed a non-partisan Parliamentary Boundary Review to examine the rules for the redistribution of seats, together with a referendum on introducing the Alternative Vote (AV) system for elections to the Commons. Provisions in the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill to hold a referendum on introducing AV were withdrawn in the ‘wash-up’ period before the election, to allow less contentious provisions to be enacted. Under the AV system, voters rank candidates in order of preference. The winning candidate must have 50% of the votes so the votes for lower-placed candidates are distributed in succession until one candidate has more than 50%. The constituency link characteristic of Electoral reform 1129 words the current first-past-the-post (FPTP) system is retained. The AV system is not a proportional voting system, but a majoritarian one. Critics point to the fact it can produce an even more disproportionate distribution of votes into seats than fort past the post.

[Brew 5,422]

20 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Brexit.. as it was presented to the UK electorate, was not clear and not simple

 

All rather irrelevant now. Regardless of what happens next it will never be acceptable to everyone and quite frankly by now few even care. 

[DJ360 6,733]

Phew!!  Brew.. I'm a little too tired to respond now.. but I'm thinking that Johnson's proposed rules are an order of magnitude more 'radical' than fiddling with boundaries or voting systems... ISTM he is literally proposing that Govt. should be above Parliamentary or Legal scrutiny.  That is Dictatorship 'On a Plate'.  I need to go back and look.. but if I've read him right.. we should a be very worried.

[DJ360 6,733]

6 minutes ago, Brew said:

 

All rather irrelevant now. Regardless of what happens next it will never be acceptable to everyone and quite frankly by now few even care. 

 

No.  That's at odds with your usual stance.  You normally adopt a very pragmatic, logical position.  'few even care' isn't pragmatic.  It's the sort of supposition you often accuse me of. 

 

Anyway, I'm going to bed..  You'll have to wait till the morning for me to continue being right. 

 

[Alpha 176]

For one, I voted in the referendum for LEAVE. Absolute!

 

I was not so naïve to think it would be without disagreement or dissension but, deal or no deal, it was OUT regardless. The Referendum was cast with agreement of Parliament until the dissenting remain members refused to accept the peoples' will. Thursday's vote, which finally won the day, confirmed the majority vote and faced down those who chose to undermine their decision to leave the EU.  

 

Parliament, including the Referendum dissenters, are the servants of the electorate, not vice versa, as the dissenter's appear to have conveniently forgotten, until Thursday's vote when the electorate, without force or compulsion, exercised their will and direction. 

 

As an aside, politicians are notoriously of a devious, and at times incompetent, nature. It could be suggested that keeping politicians out of trade and letting the market decide on their own trading rules might be worth further consideration. 

 

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

I too voted Leave, Alpha, and I'm sick and tired of being told by all and sundry who voted otherwise that I am too dim, too old, insufficiently educated, lacking in grey matter, in addition to a myriad other spurious reasons which, supposedly, account for my inability to understand what I am doing!

 

I have only one thing to say those patronising articles which I won't actually say because the words do not form part of my vocabulary!

[Stavertongirl 1,719]

Same here JS my sentiments exactly