Anything Political

[benjamin1945 16,172]

Think the majority of English citizens just want us to be ourselves,,,why have ties?  bit like being married no matter how bad it turns out,,,and having to stay together,,,think we like a bit of the 'unknown' to see were it takes us,,,much more interesting.........lol

Edit.......and as Phil says ''Life will go on''

[DJ360 6,733]

16 minutes ago, Stavertongirl said:

I have come to the point where I am not bothered if we leave or stay, although I would still vote for leave again. Obviously there has to be negotiations but surely taking no deal off the table will (and I believe has) caused the EU to have a take it or leave it attitude. However I don’t blame them entirely, our original negotiators didn’t have a clue it seems on what was wanted on our side from the deal hence the current situation we are in.

 

Yes Article 50 was invoked but since then every other option has been voted down, it very much looks like a war of attrition wearing down the opposition until they give up (leavers that is) and go away.

 

As I recall. there's only been one option. May's Deal.  Same deal.. three votes.

[Brew 5,422]

Any referendum on the terms of 'The Deal' (which is what Labour propose) will be a farce. Any deal will, by it's very nature, be so long and so complex no one will understand it or grasp the full implications. Afterwards the losing side will cry foul and it wasn't explained clearly or we thought it meant something else entirely.

 

Like SG I'm not bothered which way we go now. At my time of life and my situation it's unlikely to have an adverse effect on my living standards. If we leave the results may well take some considerable time to come through and it's probably our grandchildren that will pay the price.

[Stavertongirl 1,719]

Weren’t there other options out before parliament to be voted on at the same time as the May deal? All of which were rejected. 

[DJ360 6,733]

23 minutes ago, Brew said:

Nope not at all and Godwins Law, Reductio ad Hitlerum, is alive and well I see.

 

Clearly my Political Shorthand hasn't delivered my message effectively.  I didn't want to have to write for hours and thought you'd 'get' what I was alluding to:

 

In the case of the core Brexit campaign..  Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg/ERG and their fellow travellers.. backers such as Trump and Bannon in the US, Aaron Banks and Cummings here. and who knows what other shady unelected figures. the parallels are hard to dismiss. It's no longer relevant who took us in. The push for 'out' is clearly from the Far Right and has featured very clear Racist and Xenophobic commentary from Farage in particular.. but old Boris is hardly spotless either.  I include Hoey in the Far Right and am surprised she still has the Labour Whip. In fact I thought she'd declared she was stepping down?

 

30 minutes ago, Brew said:

Do you not remember the LFR (Labour for Referendum) movement? Kate Hoey, Keith Vaz, John McDonnell and others, all senior Labour members were strong supporters and advocates for it - hardly far right are they, in fact McDonnell is as far left as it's possible to go.

In the 70's and 80's it was the LEFT preaching cessation not the right! The Labour party in their 1983 manifesto advocated total withdrawal from Europe! A far right project? hardly. The right did  not raise objections until after the Maastrict Treaty was signed and that was 1992.

 

History.  Some of that may still attach to Corbyn, who is known to have leave sympathies because of his judgement that the EU is anti public ownership etc.  It is a messy situation, but are you really denying that those in control of the process now (named above) are Far Right?

 

33 minutes ago, Brew said:

Bringing 9/11 to the table is a stretch, 'their own creation' how does that work?

 

Because 9/11 was a response to US policy in the Middle East and was actually carried out by mostly Saudis IIRC, but it was used as justification for far wider actions, including the attacks on Hussein's Iraq.

 

38 minutes ago, Brew said:

Austerity was not a deliberate ploy. It was one way to deal with a situation not of our making. Whether we agree or not with the strategy it can hardly be called a deliberate move towards Nazism

 

Again.  I agree that Austerity was a way for the Tories to make the UK population pay for the failure of their World Capitalist masters' mistakes which caused the 2008 crash.  I'm not claiming that it was austerity itself which fuelled Brexit.  It was however the suffering, the unemployment, the low wages, the food banks etc.,etc.,together with a total misrepresentation of EU freedom of movement and the casual 'association' of ALL immigration with EU membership, which created huge areas of popular disenchantment and frustration, which could be tapped into by the Brexit message.  Yes. Godwin strikes again.

 

[Brew 5,422]

I think they were the same deal but 'as amended'. Three times it was voted down with the Irish backstop most often quoted as the reason. One thing is certain,  EU leaders knowing the doubt,  uncertainty and division on this side will see no reason to change their position.

[DJ360 6,733]

EU leaders have, IMHO, been remarkably patient with the UK.  They are not the ones pushing for Brexit and there is no reason why they should bend over to accmmodate an idiot like Johnson.

[DJ360 6,733]

1 hour ago, benjamin1945 said:

Think the majority of English citizens just want us to be ourselves,,,why have ties?  bit like being married no matter how bad it turns out,,,and having to stay together,,,think we like a bit of the 'unknown' to see were it takes us,,,much more interesting.........lol

Edit.......and as Phil says ''Life will go on''

 

Ben.. why does 'being ourselves', prevent us from 'having ties'?  In the modern world all countries need to establish tradng relationships with each other.  In the face of the massive power of the US and China, surely it makes sense for us to be part of an equally powerful trading block?

[benjamin1945 16,172]

I don't mean just the English (us) i would imagine that all European countries could benefit just by being themselves,,,i'm certainly not a little Englander......reckon competition on trade is good,,,bit like our Supermarket businesses,,who strive for bigger market shares,,,

[Brew 5,422]

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

learly my Political Shorthand hasn't delivered my message effectively

 

Actually it did, I simply didn't agree with it.

Leaving Europe was mainly a Labour led movement. You can't dismiss 'history' and then blame 9/11 on the past, nor can you arbitrarily lump Hoey in with the far right. She still holds the whip and may well be playing politics with her latest utterances and posturing.

 

 

'Austerity was not a deliberate ploy. It was one way to deal with a situation not of our making'.

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

Again.  I agree that Austerity was a way for the Tories to make the UK population pay for the failure of their World Capitalist masters' mistakes which caused the 2008 crash.  I'm not claiming that it was austerity itself which fuelled Brexit.  It was however the suffering, the unemployment, the low wages, the food banks etc.,etc.,together with a total misrepresentation of EU freedom of movement and the casual 'association' of ALL immigration with EU membership, which created huge areas of popular disenchantment and frustration, which could be tapped into by the Brexit message.  Yes. Godwin strikes again.

 

Col you should be a politician! That's a masterclass of obfuscation and misdirection worthy of Gove or Howard...    

[FLY2 10,109]

Col, not everyone listens to Farage, and I'm quite  capable of making my own mind up. As I've said frequently, I voted remain, as I was / am intelligent enough to foresee many obstacles. Now, I just want out.  If that makes me a xenophobic Little Englander, then so be it.

[DJ360 6,733]

But it doesn't Fly.  I've not claimed that all Brexit supporters are 'Little Englanders', but clearly man 'Little Englanders' and worse have voted for Brexit

[Brew 5,422]

Little Englanders and Xenophobes cover all the political spectrum but to be fair they do seem to be from the more extreme ends.

[jonab 1,644]

- - - And the discontent in the 'Royaume Non-Unis' gets even more unbelievable.

[DJ360 6,733]

41 minutes ago, Brew said:

Col you should be a politician! That's a masterclass of obfuscation and misdirection worthy of Gove or Howard...    

 

OK.. if Austerity wasn't the Tories way of making us all pay for the cost of supporting the failed banking system.. ( as well as an excuse for the Tories to dismantle the Welfare State)..what was it?

And if levels of discontent about our membership of the EU were not fed and cultivated by constant repetition of the 'immigration'/'they took all our jobs'/we don't control our borders'/;bent bananas' etc., mythology and other lies by Farage et.al.. and the not so subtle linking of that with people's troubles at home, then why did so many vote for Brexit?  Please don't try to tell me that all of the referendum leave voters suddenly woke up to federalism in 2016.  A listen to any 'street interview' sesh by the BBC soon reveals the level of understanding exhibited by many.  If you want to understand how the Far Right manipulated Brexit, just follow the rise of UKIP, Cameron's fear of his own Party's Right wing etc., etc. 

[philmayfield 6,180]

Xenophobes? Out here in the valley we’re even suspicious of the next village! If I go into the pub two miles away they always say ‘you do be a stranger in these parts, we don’t much like strangers round ‘ere’!

[Brew 5,422]

It was one solution and the fairest, the other way was to raise taxes, they chose the lesser of two evils. It may also be pointed out that if Gordon Brown hadn't made such mess of the countries finances we might have not needed quite so much austerity. I know he thinks he saved the world but I seem to remember he used an awful lot of the reserves to achieve his 'prudent' policies. In actual fact all he did was to keep moving the problem, even without the crash of 2008 we would have faced a financial crises sooner or later. I will grant Osbourne was no better and possibly made things worse by compounding the problem

 

54 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Please don't try to tell me that all of the referendum leave voters suddenly woke up to federalism in 2016.

 

Wouldn't dream of it, but whilst the word was not used as far as I can recall there was a lot of talk about losing control of our borders and sovereignty which is what it means. I say they were wrong, you say they were wrong but that doesn't make it any less relevant to those who thought it and voted leave. I think my reasoning for voting remain is sound but just thinking it does not mean I'm right.. 

 

The rich and powerful, mainly American, probably don't give a damn about politics left or right and see only opportunities to swell their coffers. If they can wreck any deal with the EU it will leave us wide open and at the mercy of big corporations. They would support remain if it gave them a better return.

 

Milton Friedman said "the only business of business is business". This is taken to mean any action that is legal can and should be taken in the pursuit of profit whilst any sense of corporate responsibility is ignored. If it bankrupts you then tough, we'll take the assets and move on.

Business will make deals with Russia, China, despots in Africa and Asia, it matters not one bit what politics are in play. So I don't see 'Far Right' movements as the problem. China and Russia (not exactly far right) particularly would like a no deal exit, anything that weakens the competition is good for them.

[Brew 5,422]

24 minutes ago, philmayfield said:

Xenophobes? Out here in the valley we’re even suspicious of the next village! If I go into the pub two miles away they always say ‘you do be a stranger in these parts, we don’t much like strangers round ‘ere’!

 

Do they still eat their young in hard times?

[philmayfield 6,180]

Many of them are married to their sisters!

[radfordred 6,284]

5 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Boris Alexander De Pfeffel Picaninny Letterbox Johnson

 

Come on you're better than that DJ? Makes you sound quite bitter, agreed I'm also a bad loser.

 

I have noticed when this "Anything Political" tread raises it's head, everyone seems to sneak away from the site   well the 5 or 6 that still post? 

[DJ360 6,733]

47 minutes ago, radfordred said:

Come on you're better than that DJ? Makes you sound quite bitter, agreed I'm also a bad loser.

 

Not bitter.  Just a reminder to those who are happy with him in charge, of what he is like.

[LizzieM 9,514]

55 minutes ago, radfordred said:

 

 

I have noticed when this "Anything Political" tread raises it's head, everyone seems to sneak away from the site   well the 5 or 6 that still post? 

I don’t sneak away from the site but I rarely read any of the ‘political’ comments.  I’m not interested, I accept that a few members have very strong views but  I don’t agree with the majority of posters who shout loudest and it is boring me to tears.   However, thankfully,  I have the choice .......  just you lot carry on. 

[philmayfield 6,180]

Like him or not (and I'm not certain I do), the guy is actually getting on with the job of delivering Brexit which is what a slender majority of the ill informed electorate wanted. Can't really fault him for carrying out the wishes of the people at a democratic referendum. The problems will come later.

[Beekay 5,172]

2 hours ago, philmayfield said:

Xenophobes? Out here in the valley we’re even suspicious of the next village! If I go into the pub two miles away they always say ‘you do be a stranger in these parts, we don’t much like strangers round ‘ere’!

Do they threaten to put you in a whicker man then Phil? Or point pitchforks at your pint.

[DJ360 6,733]

1 hour ago, Brew said:

It was one solution and the fairest, the other way was to raise taxes, they chose the lesser of two evils. It may also be pointed out that if Gordon Brown hadn't made such mess of the countries finances we might have not needed quite so much austerity. I know he thinks he saved the world but I seem to remember he used an awful lot of the reserves to achieve his 'prudent' policies. In actual fact all he did was to keep moving the problem, even without the crash of 2008 we would have faced a financial crises sooner or later. I will grant Osbourne was no better and possibly made things worse by compounding the problem

 

I disagree that it was the fairest, or that the other choice was taxation. The economy was recovering and Osborne could have chosen to stimulate it, rather than depress it by imposing austerity.  It's clear to me that he chose austerity for very Tory political/idealogical reasons, rather than sound economic reasons.  He seized the opportunity to attack the welfare state and stall the economy (and his tax take), rather than assisting the economy and boosting his tax take.

He was also bloody quick to re-privatise banks as soon as they were back in profit, instead of holding on to them and recovering some of the dosh we'd all paid out to save them.  Typical Tory tactics.  Nationalise the debt and privatise the profits.

 

It's also inaccurate to blame Brown.  He didn't cause the 2008 crash and it's not even the case that his regulation policy that failed any more than any other country's. Remember the Tories were pushing for less regulation.

As I recall, Brown was praised internationally for his approach to dealing with the crash when it came.  The Tories only managed to replace Brown because the Lib Dems propped them up in that disastrous coalition.

 

1 hour ago, Brew said:

Milton Friedman said "the only business of business is business". This is taken to mean any action that is legal can and should be taken in the pursuit of profit whilst any sense of corporate responsibility is ignored. If it bankrupts you then tough, we'll take the assets and move on.

 

 

 

Milton Friedman  was a political right winger who arguably constructed his economic 'theories' to support his political views.

Also, it is the Governments job to serve, protect and ensure the well being of all citizens, not to preside over a 'dog eat dog' business free for all.  Admittedly Friedman did concede that for example, some form of welfare provision was necessary, he was the one inspiration for those on the right who have resurrected the long discredited 19thC view that the need for welfare is always the result of fecklessness.  His views are far too easily interpreted this way and allow Govt's to blame the victim repeatedly, rather than blaming their own failures in policy.

 

1 hour ago, Brew said:

Business will make deals with Russia, China, despots in Africa and Asia, it matters not one bit what politics are in play. So I don't see 'Far Right' movements as the problem. China and Russia (not exactly far right) particularly would like a no deal exit, anything that weakens the competition is good for them.

 

Far right Govts are part of the problem for the reasons I've already outlined. China is obviously far right. Just because it is called a Communist govt. doesn't change that.  It is a highly regulated and restrictive society run by a Government which suppresses all dissent and all political opposition.  That's far right in my book.

Russia has largely lost the 'trappings' of communism (one party state etc...) which China has retained, and has exchanged them for a sort of Gangster regime.  Putin is a bully and suppresses opposition just like China.  The difference is that Putin tries to maintain a pretence of Democracy and just kills his opponents whilst feigning innocence, while China just either silences opposition, or subjects it to 're-education'.

 

The effect is the same either way.  Those countries are not true democracies.

 

We are currently hanging onto our own democracy by the skin of our teeth.  This because that idiot Cameron, in his cowardice, decided to set up a parallel 'democracy', via an ill-advised and unneccessary Referendum.. which has now allowed people to congregate around the democracy they prefer.  The one defended by Parliament for a thousand years, or the one claimed by less than 35% of the electorate.