Anything Political

[Oztalgian 3,299]

Ben, 

Your two penn'orth is welcome and I am certain that the would be many who agree with you.

If it happens it will be a sad day and if it does I am likely to relinquish my British passport and become an Aussie especially if British passport holders have to get visas to travel around Europe.

[DJ360 6,731]

Ben, your opinions are welcome here, just as are anyone else's.

 

Yes, I think there have been pressures on the 'Union' for a long long time, with certain elements which might be broadly termed 'nationalists', in Wales, Ireland and Scotland all clamouring for 'Independence'.  Personally, I'm all for allowing and encouraging the local culture etc., in all of the components of the Union, but I'm also convinced we are all better off together. This shouldn't surprise anyone as I'm a comfirmed Europhile.

Sadly, one of the many unforseen (at least by him) consequences of Cameron's disastrous referendum was to further split the political ambitions of the component parts of the Union.

 

I agree that there is a real chance of the union splitting sooner rather than later.. but it's clearly a very complex issue.  For e.g., very hard to see how such issues as Defence could be handled.  Many more issues I'm sure but I'm not up to speed on them.

 

Oh.. by the way Ben.. a couple of weeks ago you told me you disagree with half of what I say...  I just hope it's the right half... .

[Brew 5,422]

British values is a cognitive state of mind that is indefinable and unique to each and everyone of us.

 

When we talk of British values we actually mean English values and Englishness. Speak with most of the other three nations and the reaction with vary between indifference and open hostility.

 

The 5 values listed are simply generic guidance notes, principles if you will, aimed at those who wish to migrate here or seek citizenship. As Col points out there is nothing particularly British about them and many Banana republics are just as likely to pay them lip service as we are

I would suggest the values as listed have absolutely nothing to do with the 'stiff upper lip' , 'Rule Britannia' and the 'Dunkirk spirit' variety most consider are part of the British way of life and culture when asked to define British values.

Nor does the overt patriotism/nationalism as mooted by the likes of the BNP (the majority of whom I doubt know the words to the national anthem), they simply pander to the cretins among us.

 

Ozt,

I said many moons ago on NS that after Brexit we may see the UK start to fragment, I think we are  closer now to losing Scotland than at any time since the 1707 act of Union. It would be regrettable but Sturgeon is a staunch separatist, she  is also the most capable leader Scotland has had in a very long time. 

 

Going off at a tangent via  Brexit is just typical NS thread drift and has nothing relevant to offer.

 

 

[DJ360 6,731]

On 7/3/2020 at 6:23 AM, HSR said:

The flipside of this, I'm happily surprised how they appear to have conquered the London Corvid issue...

 

Stone the Crows!! 

 

[radfordred 6,284]

On 6/3/2019 at 2:12 PM, philmayfield said:

Free licence at 75 Rog. It’s about all you’ve got to look forward to!

 

Not no more kid 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53347021?at_medium=custom7&at_custom3=%40BBCBreaking&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom1=[post+type]&at_custom4=991C2828-C1D3-11EA-9172-93424D484DA4&at_campaign=64

[DJ360 6,731]

50 minutes ago, Brew said:

When we talk of British values we actually mean English values and Englishness. Speak with most of the other three nations and the reaction with vary between indifference and open hostility.

 

An interesting slant and probably correct, but if so it renders the whole idewa pretty meaningless as we'd have a whole section of the population under the false impression that they share something with each other when in reality they don't.

 

50 minutes ago, Brew said:

I would suggest the values as listed have absolutely nothing to do with the 'stiff upper lip' , 'Rule Britannia' and the 'Dunkirk spirit' variety most consider are part of the British way of life and culture when asked to define British values.

 

True.  Interestingly the Beeb is currently re-running Ian Hislop's 'Stiff Upper Lip' series, which traces the evolution of attitudes to emotion from 18thC through Victorian tmes etc.  Very interesting.

As an aside, Lucy Worsley is also repeated covering for e.g.the way that the Tudors and Shakespeare 'changed history' in their re-writing of the reign and character of Richard III.

 

50 minutes ago, Brew said:

Going off at a tangent via  Brexit is just typical NS thread drift and has nothing relevant to offer.

 

 

But this  thread is not specific. It's just 'Anything Political'.  Oz raised some of the effects of the Referendum on the strength of the Union which are relevant to current UK internal politics.

[DJ360 6,731]

On 7/8/2020 at 12:28 PM, DJ360 said:

Personally, I'm all for allowing and encouraging the local culture etc., in all of the components of the Union, but I'm also convinced we are all better off together.

 

On reflection, I believe that Ireland would be better off united, if only the religious divide could be overcome.

[Brew 5,422]

5 hours ago, DJ360 said:

we'd have a whole section of the population under the false impression that they share something with each other when in reality they don't.

 

When was it any different? 

 

5 hours ago, DJ360 said:

But this  thread is not specific. It's just 'Anything Political'.

 

Accepted but I'm merely suggesting rehashing Brexit, if it ever gets here, adds nothing the discussion of 'British values' - indeed it's more likely to emphasise the differences between the various factions.

 

On the Irish question my take is that providing it's the peoples choice and not a decision foisted  by a political expedient or forced on them through violence, I really don't mind what they do.

[HSR 286]

19 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

Stone the Crows!! 

 

 

Please elaborate..

All my schooling was W4, my daughter still lives there.. 

Considering the initial outbreak, I'm happily surprised at the containment..

[HSR 286]

19 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Lucy Worsley

 

Didn't  she go to school or live in Nottingham. at some point? 

[DJ360 6,731]

HSR, just a gentle correction for a possible 'typo'.  Corvid is Latin for Crow and is used to describe any bird in the Corvidae family which includes Crows, Jays, Rooks etc.

 

According to Wikipaedia, Lucy Worsley  spent some time at West Bridgeford School before going to university. It seems a bit odd as her father taught at University of Reading and her mother is an education specialist  Since she was raised and initially educated in Reading, Berks, I have no idea why she studied in Nottm.  Maybe one or both of her parents moved to Nottm for a while.

 

What is W4?

[philmayfield 6,144]

Just another gentle typo correction Col. from one pedant to another. There’s no ‘e’ in Bridgford.

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

Just to confuse matters, if you're Scottish....it's corbies (nowt to do with Corbyn!)

 

Always makes me think of this poem from school days

 

AS I was walking all alane
I heard twa corbies making a mane:
The tane unto the tither did say,
'Whar sall we gang and dine the day?'
'—In behint yon auld fail dyke	5
I wot there lies a new-slain knight;
And naebody kens that he lies there
But his hawk, his hound, and his lady fair.
'His hound is to the hunting gane,
His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame,	10
His lady 's ta'en anither mate,
So we may mak our dinner sweet.
'Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane,
And I'll pike out his bonny blue e'en:
Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair	15
We'll theek our nest when it grows bare.
'Mony a one for him maks mane,
But nane sall ken whar he is gane:
O'er his white banes, when they are bare,
The wind sall blaw for evermair.'

[benjamin1945 16,165]

Tut Tut Col,,,a bestwood boy putting an E in Bridgford,,,it must be that High Pavement school.....should have gone to Padstow E with me....lol...

[Brew 5,422]

50 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

W4

 

Chiswick?

[DJ360 6,731]

Yes. Hands up on Bridgford. My bad!

For what it's worth I did a double take..but.. unusually for me... decided I was right.

 

 

Tut tut Ben... Bestwood is a proper noun and needs a capital B. Seems we're all having an off day... 

 

 

Jill. I had a vocal version of the Twa Corbies on a compilation album. I think it was by Scottish band The Clutha.

 

[DJ360 6,731]

Just checked 'Twa Corbies' was by Marie Little.

 

http://www.theballadeers.com/fc/fc_1971_wof.htm

[Stavertongirl 1,719]

Would Scotland be able to support itself without English taxpayers money?  I couldn’t see it being able to join the EU, surely Spain, for one, at least would object as it also has regions that want to be independent. Wouldn’t an independent Scotland joining create a precedence (is that the right word)? 

 

[Al Duff 21]

I strongly believe, having emigrated here, that Scotland would be fine as an independent country. If you look at its history, including leading the European Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution, you see its strength.

[Rob.L 1,090]

Why shouldn’t Scotland thrive as an independent state?

 

It’s population is comparable to Denmark, Finland, Slovakia and Ireland. And none of them seem to have any difficulty surviving.

 

By GDP, it’s mid-table when compared to EU countries, on a par with Portugal, Greece and Czechia, and well ahead of Hungary and the smaller states.

[Al Duff 21]

And Scotland is much bigger than the independent Baltic states, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

[Brew 5,422]

There is no reason why they can't make it alone  however  the past is no guarantee of success in the future. Scotland and Glasgow in particular played a major part the industrial revolution -  but only after 1707 and the union with England.

Prior to that 17th century Scotland was mainly small farms, muddy roads and bogs with a fair proportion of the population living at subsistence  levels. Little changed until English influence, trade and farming methods migrated north of the border... History shows us where we came from, not where we're going.

 

GDP is fine as far as it goes but much of it is the result of trade  and subsidies from England? Separation is complex, we only have to see how much progress Brexit has made. We've now had just over four years of negotiation and no closer to a deal than when we started.

[Al Duff 21]

Good point about the Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution being in the 18th and 19th centuries respectively, i.e. after Scotland was conned into a Union with England in 1707. But...Scotland had 4 universities since the 15th century - St Andrews, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen - while England, with ten times the population, had, er, ...2. Go figure which country was more advanced...

[DJ360 6,731]

9 hours ago, Stavertongirl said:

Would Scotland be able to support itself without English taxpayers money?  I couldn’t see it being able to join the EU, surely Spain, for one, at least would object as it also has regions that want to be independent. Wouldn’t an independent Scotland joining create a precedence (is that the right word)? 

 

 

I'd have thought the revenue from Whiskey would help a lot.. Scotland also has huge tourism revenue and potential though I'm really not up to speed on the rest of it.

 

8 hours ago, Al Duff said:

I strongly believe, having emigrated here, that Scotland would be fine as an independent country. If you look at its history, including leading the European Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution, you see its strength.

 

I'd agree that it is a mistake to underestimate the capability and intelligence of the Scottish population.  I spent a lot of my Post Grad training in Scotland and found that both their education system and their respect for education was at a high level. 

 

I just think that long term petty 'nationalism' (on all sides ) is not helpful to anyone and needs to be clearly separated from local culture.

[HSR 286]

Just watched a two parter on Quest TV..

There's a good chance Nessy is a previously undiscovered Sturgeon..