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9 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

 

OK.  I accept I didn't think that through to meet situations like yours MD, which you already know I sympathise with.  Maybe in the case of people with family reasons.. we should be looking for 'verified quarantine'.  However.. with anyone else I'd still advocate enfoced quarantine.  I'm not talking prison, but something like we did with the cruise ship folk early on.

However well intentioned and sensible people are, I think it's nearly impossible to avoid spread of CV on planes, even with social distancing.  We have to remember that we started with just two cases in York.  We have now lost 30000 + people and much of our economy.  We could very easily do it again.

 

Quarantine is quarantine. Maybe best not to have lots of people in commandeered hotels round Heathrow. That would lead to a modern day plague pit. Mandatory 14 day quarantine for anyone coming into the country is fine by me. Its a bit of a result that this is making it more likely for my wife to get back rather than an impediment. The rules are  14 days in a private residence. She has a lot of cleaning to do! 

 

And on reflection, taking examples from history, the 1918/9 and 1957 outbreaks, it was not the first wave that was the most destructive, it was the second wave. If Boris and the Govt are trying to prevent that, its very very sensible. There are signs that the second wave has started in Germany and S Korea. 

 

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28 minutes ago, LizzieM said:

But Ms Sturgeon is going all out to make this a political statement on her behalf.  

 

Sturgeon is an opportunist and a clever one at that - her ambition may yet come to pass.

She has to tread very carefully though; a wrong decision and a worsening situation with Covid in Scotland would finish her.

 

18 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

I think it's nearly impossible to avoid spread of CV on planes,

 

I may be being a little naive here but I think it might well be possible. Test everyone before they get on the plane!. Airports are big and a designated testing area is not unreasonable, just clear the expensive junk shops they all have.

If army personnel can be trained to make the tests in such a short time it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for airport/ line staff to do the same.

I'm not sure how long it takes to  get the results though that's where my plan may fall down but surely by now the process has been mechanised

 

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19 hours ago, Brew said:

The first 10 can hardly be blamed, even by the rabid socialist Thomas Scribbs

 

Attempting to refute by shooting the messenger is never a good look.  It really doesn't matter whther he is a 'Rabid Socialist' or Attilla the Hun'.  What matters is whether what he says has any substance.  Most of it is factual.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

decisions were made under advisement.

 

Which means the Govt. chose a stance which it could defend politically by claiming scientific backing.

19 hours ago, Brew said:

Johnson did NOT advocate the 'herd immunity' strategy and indeed was at pains to repudiate that it was ever government policy.

 

Well he would say that wouldn't he.. yet I've just watched a re-run of the adviser bloke saying exactly that.  They started down that route but quickly dropped it, after much damage was done.

20 hours ago, Brew said:

Keeping notes short is standard business practice

 

So why did he reportedly need to emphasise it?

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

The football, racing etc were a mistake but again only in hindsight,

 

No.  Many people were uneasy, me included. It was all over Social Media.

20 hours ago, Brew said:

If they send out 100,000 test kits by post what more do you want them to do? Perhaps we should lock up those who fail to return them.

 

Many were sent out with no return address.

20 hours ago, Brew said:

I don't know where you obtain your figures from but the daily mortality is rate IS falling.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/    Daily deaths, half way down

 

I specifically said 'hospital deaths'. I said so for a reason.. i.e. that this is the only consistent figure we have as Govt. have muddied the waters by later adding in deaths in all settings.  Clearly we need to know that, but hospital deaths is the only consistent stat and from what I see it has been constant at around 350 per day for over a week. If we accept a 1-2% death rate, this means that there are at the very least  30-60000 active cases and imagining that they are all effectively isolating is stretching credulity to the limit.

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14 hours ago, radfordred said:

I doubt Corbyn, McDonald & Abbott couldn’t have done any better? They couldn’t even decide on Brexit. 

 

Pointless comment because those 3 are not in office.

 

14 hours ago, radfordred said:

The government are following the advice from the so called experts “The World Health Organisation” if anyone should be brought to task it’s them.

 

The Govt absolutely are NOT following WHO guidance. Quite the opposite.

 

14 hours ago, radfordred said:

I’m more than happy with the job Boris & his gang are doing.

 

Your choice. 

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9 hours ago, Ayupmeducks said:

I hate to say this to an intelligent man DG, but you show signs of "media indoctrination" I'm not being rude, but even if I show you cast iron evidence, you'd refute it.

 

I hate to say this to an intelligent man Ayup, but you show signs of "media indoctrination" I'm not being rude, but even if I show you cast iron evidence, you'd refute it.

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How true are the virus tests?  How many of the recorded deaths are actually truly related to Covid19?  
 

I ask this question because a very good friend’s husband passed away in a Nottingham hospital on Friday. 
He had been in a care home for many months, suffering from Alzheimer’s, although he’d had it for several years.  I spoke to my friend on Friday evening to offer my condolences and she said all the residents of the care home had been tested for Covid19 on the previous Saturday, she spoke to the home 2 days later, last Monday and was told his test showed ‘negative’ (my friend hasn’t been able to visit her husband since mid March)  She then had a phone call on Wednesday to say he’d been taken to hospital with a high temperature, but no cough or breathing issues.  She went to the hospital and was allowed to see her husband, he passed away on Friday in a Covid Ward.  It’s a blessed relief for her and her family but it doesn’t make it any better, wondering if he really did have the virus or had just given up.  
 

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I didn't say they  weren't factual, I said they can't be blamed for the spread and subsequent Covid deaths.

 

The Govt would be remiss and rightly taken to task if they didn't follow expert advice.

 

Not sure if it was Keeler or Rice-Davis who said that , anyway I said Boris didn't say it and dismissed it. It was, and I'm sure you know,  the cretin Cummings who came up with it. It's not a new idea and like all decision making bodies many different scenarios are discussed before the final course of action is set down.

 

He probably needs to emphasise it due to his predilection for surrounding himself with sycophants who try to impress with him with details.

 

It may well have been a page or so on Facebook or Twitter but that's hardly going to be noticed until it runs to several thousands of posts. 

 

If they went with no return address then that is awful. But bad as that is it's not really the government that needs a verbal kicking is it?

 

In the overall scheme of things it's irrelevant where the poor souls die - the unmistakable trend is down which I'm sure is why we are seeing some easing. I just hope it's not too soon and we spark a second peak

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Brew said:

Johnson message was as clear as it could be. IF you can, go to work.

 

Johnson.. as ever, was long on rhetoric and short on detail. Far too many vague grey areas and far too much waffle.  Workplaces will be confused, shcool is up in the air, and many will just choose.. as they already have.. to do as they bloody well like. The country needs clear leadership.. not this..

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1 minute ago, DJ360 said:

Far too many vague grey areas and far too much waffle

 

Not really fair Col. I know  he probably couldn't find his backside with a map and GPS but he can hardly give details of mostly unknowns. He was at pains to stress IF and MAY because there can be no certainties. That's my only criticism so far of Starmer, demanding impossible details and trying gain ground when there are none.

 

We have, at least I have, long chuntered about the 'nanny state' making decisions and trying to rule our lives in ever increasing detail. Now it seems you want them to do just that?

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9 minutes ago, Brew said:

It was, and I'm sure you know,  the cretin Cummings who came up with it.

 

Don't know if he 'came up with' it, or just latched onto it..  ( He is seemingly a eugenicist) but it wasn't him who pronounced on it.  It never is with creeps like him.  It was a Govt. Adviser/NHS 'top bod' or someone who actually talked about 'flattening the curve' and actually used the words 'not suppressing the virus completely.. but letting it spread in a controlled way to create a sort of 'herd immunity'.  This was done on Johnson's watch.  As some President of the USA said when they still had a credible political system.. 'The Buck Stops Here'.

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Just now, Brew said:

We have, at least I have, long chuntered about the 'nanny state' making decisions and trying to rule our lives in ever increasing detail. Now it seems you want them to do just that?

 

No.  I said at the outset that Govt were pretending to manage a public health crisis but were actually trying to manage a political situation.  They are still doing so.

 

In a situation like this we need not only a 'nanny'  but a Sgt Major.  Johnson is neither. You know very well that I have never had any faith in Johnson and he has lived down to my expectations.

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Really sorry to hear that, Lizzie.

 

From what I understand, not all of the tests are 100% accurate - probably closer to 80% at best. It also depends on whether it was a blood test or a swab. I can only imagine how difficult it would be to take a swab test on an Alzheimer’s patient as the swab has to go to the back of the nose.

 

It may turn out that the numbers of who died from CV19 are either over or under-reported. Only when we’re able to see the real numbers of “excess deaths”, will we know the full impact.

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1 hour ago, LizzieM said:

But Ms Sturgeon is going all out to make this a political statement on her behalf.  

 

Lizzie.. why do you single out Sturgeon?  They are ALL watching their political backsides.  This is , whether we like it or not.. a political issue.  I don't much like Sturgeon as a character.. but she is showing more leadership for me than Johnson is.

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Guilt by association? Some clown spoke out of turn is how I see it and the buck only stops if there are subsequent actions and reactions. In this case it was just a verbal gaffe, one among many I'm sure.

 

The Govt are not pretending they are actually doing it, you just don't think (nor will you ever), they are doing a good job.

 

I'm not overly impressed but I can't see how it could be better handled. Take away the hyperbole, the misinformation and general confusion and we are doing as well as any in my opinion

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When it comes to approval ratings on how leaders are dealing with the crisis, Mrs Sturgeon has over 70% support from all Scots, including Tory and Labour voters.

 

A lot better than Johnson is getting in England.

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/latest-poll-shows-snp-riding-high-scots-back-nicola-sturgeons-handling-covid-crisis-angus-robertson-2842382

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25 minutes ago, LizzieM said:

How true are the virus tests?  How many of the recorded deaths are actually truly related to Covid19?  

 

Lizzie, my sympathies to your friend, but it's an awkward one.  Many of the elderly and infirm may well have had little time left anyway.. but for my part even if Covid-19 only shortened their life by one day we need to know that.  We should not be 'masking' the true impact, but nor should we be letting anyone off the hook.  We need the true facts.  Not the political facts, or the convenient facts, but the true facts.

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8 minutes ago, Brew said:

The Govt are not pretending they are actually doing it, you just don't think (nor will you ever), they are doing a good job.

 

I think we really need to drop the pretence and recognise that there are party political and wider political forces in play here, even as the virus kills thousands.  I'd liken the CV victims to the WW1 infantry who were sacrificed while the bigger political players quite literally played politics.

 

To be fair, you are just as good at using the term 'Socialist' in a pejorative sense.  Having socialist sympathies within a democracy is not a crime and in fact demonstrates a real empathy with those less fortunate. It does not imply a 'free ride' for anyone.  I'd argue that the Johnsons of this world are the ones getting a free ride.

 

When they get something right.. (In my opinion) the govt. will get my praise. .. however.. so far..:

 

-They have consistently failed to admit that their deliberate underfunding, backdoor privatisation and general asset stripping of NHS and all other public services for TEN YEARS, left us ill-prepared to meet CV.

-They have consistently lied about testing capability.

-They were too late with all containment measures and they now risk being too early lifting the 'lockdown'.  Please don't tell me that they are not influenced by their various party funding contributors.  A senior Aviation spokeswoman only yesterday made a thinly veiled threat over 'quarantine' on TV  Let's not forget that Airlines donated over £8m to the Tories and Brexiteers last year...

 

This whole mess cannot, and should not, be separated from party politics.

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I doubt we will ever get the "true" facts, Col.  Seems like some will always try to politicize any issue.  We are dealing with a unique problem and there seems to be as many different opinions as people.  Meanwhile the innocent  suffer.  Even the so called 'experts' tend to disagree with each other.  Speaking of experts, a customer of mine made the following  observation when the topic came up.  "An 'ex' is a has been, and a  'spurt' is a drip under pressure."  :biggrin:  I never forgot it and have never claimed to be an expert at anything.  ;)

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5 minutes ago, loppylugs said:

.  Seems like some will always try to politicize any issue.  

 

Dave, all issues are political. We will only ever get beyond 'politics' when we all think alike and all have convergent interests.   All issues are by nature 'political'.  Politics is unavoidable.

 

If I learned nothing else from studying Politics at Degree and Post Grad level for four years. I learned that EVERYTHING is 'political'.  The mistake many make is in thinking of politics only in party political terms.. but that is only the 'formal' expression of politics.  The deeper reality is that politics determines 'who gets what'.  That in turn is determined by which individual, or which group/tribe/race/nation/company/party/alliance etc... can get its way.  The interplay between them IS politics.

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I think we all recognise politics are deeply ingrained in all aspects of out lives though I don't subscribe to the melodramatic WW1 analogy .

You are right about my use of the word 'socialist' when I need to express my distaste for those who put dogma in place of common sense and claim it's for the common good. I don't think I have ever inferred its illegal to be a socialist. and empathy is not the sole domain of the left, being a socialist does not automatically give them the moral high ground.

 

There is a fine line between under-funding deliberately and 'prudently'  balancing the books. No government has a bottomless pit of money.

 

As for the lockdown we were later than some, earlier than others, a judgement call that history will tell us the rights and wrong of.

The  donations you speak of were admittedly more than the airline workers union donations to Labour but how much influence it bought is open to doubt.

 

 

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Another strange side-effect of CV is the disappearance of real money.

 

I've used card payments for years anyway, but now a lot of places are actively encouraging people to not use coins.

 

I've got about £2.50 in loose change which I've had for over 6 weeks. I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to get rid of it.

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I had 5 pound coins on my bedside table for weeks on end. I used three of them to repay a neighbour who picked up a couple of things for me yesterday.  I bleached them first.  I also bleached the stuff she got me. No offence intended or taken. 

My wallet had £70 in it.  All plastic notes which have had the bleach treatment. I can't recall if I mentioned finding three £10 notes under a hedgerow a few weeks back.. in a place where the young 'stoners' tend to park up and do their 'deals'.   I brought all three home clutched in the same hand before dunking them straight in bleach.  They then went into my wallet but £30 was added to my own donation to the 'Big Night In'.

 

I keep 20p coins in  the centre console of my car... mostly for feeding parking meters etc., but also handy for emergencies.  There's probably about £25-30 in there and now covered in a layer of fine dust...

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