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On 5/8/2020 at 1:24 PM, Brew said:

As I keep saying figures alone don't tell the whole story and we really should not join the blame culture conspiracy theorists who simply seek to criticise and will no doubt demand compensation one day.

 

Below is a breakdown of what Johnson and the Tories have done concerning the Coronavirus. They are responsible for a lot of people catching Covid-19 in the UK and dying.

December 31st China alerts WHO to new virus.

January 23rd Study reveals a third of China’s patients require intensive care.

January 24th Boris Johnson misses first Cobra meeting.

January 29th Boris Johnson misses second Cobra meeting.

January 31st The NHS declares first-ever ‘Level 4 critical incident’ Meanwhile, the government declines to join European scheme to source PPE.

February 5th Boris Johnson misses third Cobra meeting.

February 12th Boris Johnson misses fourth Cobra meeting. Exeter University published a study warning Coronavirus could infect 45 million people in the UK if left unchallenged.

February 13th Boris Johnson misses conference call with European leaders.

February 14th Boris Johnson goes away on holiday. Aides are told keeps Johnson’s briefing notes short or he will not read them.

February 18th Johnson misses fifth cobra meeting.

February 26th Boris Johnson announces ‘Herd Immunity’ strategy, announcing some people will lose loved ones. A government document is leaked, predicting half a million Brits could die in ‘worse case scenario.’

February 29th Boris Johnson retreats to his country manor. NHS warns of ‘PPE shortage nightmare’ Stockpiles have dwindled or expired after years of austerity cuts.

March 2nd Boris Johnson attends his first Cobra meeting, declining another opportunity to join the European PPE scheme. Government’s own scientists say over half a million Brit’s could die if virus left unrestrained. Johnson tells country “We are very, very well prepared.”

March 3rd Scientists urge Government to advise the public not to shake hands. Boris Johnson brags about shaking hands of Coronavirus patients.

March 4th Government stops providing daily updates on virus following a 70% spike in UK cases. They will later U-turn on this amid accusations they are withholding vital information.

March 5th Boris Johnson tells public to ‘wash their hands and business as usual’

March 7th Boris Johnson joins 82,000 people at Six Nations match.

March 9th After Ireland cancels St Patrick’s day parades, the government says there’s “No Rationale” for cancelling sporting events.

March 10th - 13th Cheltenham takes place, more than a quarter of a million people attend.

March 11th 3,000 Atletico Madrid fans fly to Liverpool.

March 12th Boris Johnson states banning events such as Cheltenham will have little effect. The Imperial College study finds the government’s plan is projected to kill half a million people.

March 13th The FA suspends the Premier League, citing an absence of Government guidance. Britain is invited to join a European scheme for joint purchase of ventilators and refuses. Boris Johnson lifts restrictions of those arriving from Coronavirus hot spots.

March 14th Government is still allowing mass gatherings, as Stereophonics play to 5,000 people in Cardiff.

March 16th Boris Johnson asks Britons not to go to pubs but allows them to stay open. During a conference call, Johnson jokes that push to build new ventilators should be called ‘Operation Last Gasp’

March 19th Hospital patients with Coronavirus are returned to care homes in a bid to free up hospital space. What follows is a boom of virus cases in care homes.

March 20th The Government states that the PPE shortage crisis is “Completely resolved” Less than two weeks later, the British Medical Association reports an acute shortage in PPE.

March 23rd UK goes into lockdown.

March 26th Boris Johnson is accused of putting ‘Brexit over Breathing’ by not joining EU ventilator scheme. The government then state they had not joined the scheme because they had ‘missed the email’

April 1st The Evening Standard publishes that just 0.17% of NHS staff have been tested for the virus.

April 3rd The UK death toll overtakes China.

April 5th 17.5 million Antibody tests, ordered by the government and described by Boris Johnson as a ‘game-changer’ are found to be a failure.

April 7th Boris Johnson is moved to intensive care with Coronavirus.

April 16th Flights bring 15,000 people a day into the UK - without virus testing.

April 17th Health Secretary Matt Hancock says “I would love to be able to wave a magic wand and have PPE fall from the sky.” The UK has now missed four opportunities to join the EU’s PPE scheme.

April 21st The Government fails to reach its target of face masks for the NHS, as it is revealed manufacturers offers of help were met with silence. Instead millions of pieces of PPE are being shipped from the UK to Europe.

April 23rd - 24th Government announces testing kits for 10 million key workers. Orders run out within minutes as only 5,000 are made available.

April 25th UK death toll from Coronavirus overtakes that of The Blitz.

April 30th Boris Johnson announces the UK has succeeded in avoiding a tragedy that had engulfed other parts of the world - At this point, The UK has the 3rd highest death toll in the world.

May 1st The Government announces it has reached its target of 100,000 tests - They haven’t conducted the tests, but posted the testing kits.

May 5th The UK death toll becomes the highest in Europe.

May 6th Boris Johnson announces the UK could start to lift lockdown restrictions by next week.

 

It really isn't a great record.  It's inexcusable.

 

Add in that now.. finally.. there is talk of air passengers being quarantined.  As far as I know this is currently proposed to be taken on trust ..  'Yes.. I promise to self isolate..'  FFS!!!!!

 

We still have thousands of people flying into the UK unchecked.  I'm sorry but my view is that whoever they are and wherever they come from they should be aware.  'Land in the UK and expect to be FORCIBLY QUARANTINED for a minimum of 14 days.  If you don't like that.  Stay away.'

 

For the last week or more we have been seeing a consistent  3-400 hospital deaths per day.  That figure is not falling.  Think about it.  It is pretty well established that it typically takes around 3 weeks for this virus to kill people.  We have been in a feeble and badly enforced 'lockdown' for 7 weeks. if the lockdown was half decent we'd not be seeing these deaths.

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On 5/8/2020 at 9:38 AM, Oztalgian said:

Brew, I am using the numbers which are broadly equivalent, only to highlight the efficacy of differences in responses by governments here in Australia versus the UK and I don't think I am wrong in saying that the population of the UK has been poorly served by those that govern them.

Thanks DJ360 Your post supports my view that the UK has been badly served by those who were charged with responding to this virus.

The recent announcement to have all arrivals self quarantine effective in a fortnight, Why not immediately. Yet again a case of too little too late.

I agree it is not all about the numbers but if that extra death is one of your family then I think many would agree and ask the question, "Have we done all we could?"

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The first 10 can hardly be blamed, even by the rabid socialist Thomas Scribbs who wrote the article, for causing Covid or people dying from the same'

 

They may not, with hindsight, have been the best course of action but decisions were made under advisement.

 

Johnson did NOT advocate the 'herd immunity' strategy and indeed was at pains to repudiate that it was ever government policy. It was one of many ideas mooted by various advisers, as such it was discussed, taken into consideration and ultimately rejected. The quote has been attributed to him by either ill informed or vindictive journalists.

Seizing on the phrase by the unscrupulous is a smoke screen, something to fuel the hard of thinking  mobs moral indignation, not even the Labour party have raised it.

 

Keeping notes short is standard business practice, that's why the conclusion or summary section of a report is on the first page.

 

We didn't need to join the EU sourcing PPE. We had/have a warehouse holding 500 million pounds worth of the stuff. A joint agreement with the EU may have led to us having to supply some of it abroad and wouldn't the naysayers have just loved that. The fact we had enough to send some to Europe as a gesture raised  enough furore without making it a formal agreement.

Contrary to popular opinion cotton masks and plastic aprons do not go out of date, nor do the paper coveralls.The shortage of PPE reported by the BMA was due not to lack of supplies but legal wrangling and slow delivery. 

 

The football, racing etc were a mistake but again only in hindsight, there was no outcry at the time and though alarm bells were probably ringing maybe they thought the public would not accept it -  I don't know.

 

Death toll and the Blitz is a superfluous statement, irrelevant, unnecessary and not in very good taste. Sounds like a Sun strapline.

 

If they send out 100,000 test kits by post what more do you want them to do? Perhaps we should lock up those who fail to return them.

 

The death toll is not the highest in Europe. Spain and Italy both have more. (9/5/20).

 

Detained by force? what are we North Korea? 

 

Until the government have perfect knowledge they follow best practice and advice and quite frankly I'm convinced there would those who moan and groan no matter what they do. 

 

I don't know where you obtain your figures from but the daily mortality is rate IS falling.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/    Daily deaths, half way down

 

There will be peaks and troughs but the overall graph is showing a reduction which is probably why they feel able to ease up on the lock down.

 

Had the lock down been stricter, there may have been a difference but that's something we can only speculate on.

 

 

 

 

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We can discuss all day the relevance of comparison of figures, number of people, population densities etc. but around the world it appears proven

there are a number of strategies that seem to be working.

  1. Acting Early
  2. Physical Distancing
  3. Extensive Testing
  4. Isolation of Known Cases
  5. Rapid Contact Tracing

I'll leave you to judge for yourselves how well the UK has fared against these criteria.

 

Thankfully in Australia we have yet to reach a 100 deaths however this may be surpassed soon as we have a number of active clusters interstate that we are assured are controlled. Here in South Australia we have one only active case.

 

Stay safe everyone.

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I doubt Corbyn, McDonald & Abbott couldn’t have done any better? They couldn’t even decide on Brexit. :crazy:

The government are following the advice from the so called experts “The World Health Organisation” if anyone should be brought to task it’s them.

I’m more than happy with the job Boris & his gang are doing.

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More than happy r r

the total lack of concern help and guidance the government has given to care homes

is appalling and verging on criminal.

I'm not saying any other party would have done better but  more than happy!! don't know about that.   

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Sorry,  but put Johnson and Trump into the same category . They both had enough warning and if they had paid more attention there wouldn't have been the number of tragedies there are now.

Remember we in Italy have seen things from outside, being the 2nd country to be infected. A lot of you will say Italy hasn't done enough and we may agree but the warnings were there for all to see. We followed China's example as far as we could.

We are now into phase two with various businesses reopening. Piemonte has had an increase in cases mainly due ( IMHO) to those irresponsible picnickers flaunting the rules at Easter. Now just wait and see what the next few weeks bring as we open up and ease lockdown.

We went into lockdown on March 10th and I for one would continue like this if it meant no increase in cases although I really am fed up of  little to do and not seeing anybody. I wouldn't even consider venturing out wondering if I might catch this virus. But everybody has their own opinion and I hope it's the correct one.

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Let me educate you a little, in America, a President has few powers, very few, he is the head of state, much like the Queen in England, everything he does can be vetoed by Congress, Article 1 Sec 1 of the constitution states who can make laws, and that is Congress, a President cannot make law.

Britain's PM has way more power than a US President has. Now if you blamed Congress for not acting sooner, I'd back your statement up 100% Nonna, BUT, they were too busy to act trying to bring phoney charges against the President to Impeach him, and it backfired and now looks like charges could well be laid for sedition against the leaders of the Democrat Party.

Constitutionally, if a President vetoes any bill, it is sent back to Congress, where if they wish, can table another vote and if they get three fourths of the house to say "Yea" they out veto the President and it becomes law.

Now to throw another spanner in the works,  the Tenth amendment gives the states and people the say in many things, ie what Congress hasn't been given powers to carry out, the states and the people can do without federal intervention.

Our system of government here in the US is a Constitutional Republic, where people are supposed to govern themselves, out national government has few powers, but our states have many powers granted them under law. Each state, has it's own Constitution, which mirrors the Federal Constitution, AND we have our own state laws, which differ from state to state, ie each state is a separate nation within the nation.

Does that make it clearer why the President is slower to act than other heads of nations, at a guess, I'd say Italy's President has far more legal powers given him than a US President. The reason why a US President has few powers goes back to when America was a British colony under King George. After the revolutionary war, the 13 colonies didn't want a head of state with the same powers of a King, as they said, we would be back in the same boat we were in prior to the war within a few years.

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If that’s the case, why has Trump been issuing Executive Orders left, right and centre, which seem not to need the agreement or approval of either Senate or Congress?

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Irrespective of US Law and Constitutional issues, Trump is still a Bona Fide idiot who has very loudly telegraphed his complete ignorance of science, medicine.. and in fact most things.

 

It's well known the US presidents are somewhat 'hamstrung' by their relationship with Congress.. which often explains their wilder Foreign Policy adventures.. often used to create an 'enemy' which they can loudly defeat to bolster support at home.

 

In addition, Trump'spolicy plank is and always has been pushing classic US unfettered Capitalism, and US 'exceptionalism' whilst also appealing to the bizarre notions of 'freedom' which have led to huge numbers of US citizens feeling that it is their 'right' to carry assault weapons and to use their existence to threaten democratically elected State and National Institutions.  As I've said before.. it's all 'rights without responsibilities' stuff worthy of adolescents.

 

I notice you have also not mentioned Presidential 'Executive Orders' which I knoew can be overturned, but not imediately.

 

Trump is ignorant and hopeless.  If you let him.. he will destroy you all.

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6 minutes ago, Rob.L said:

If that’s the case, why has Trump been issuing Executive Orders left, right and centre,

 

Just beat me to it Rob.

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'Phoney charges', Ayup? Tell us more.

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Anyone who would like to watch an intelligent and well reasoned assessment of Coronavirus Policy in it's political context.. could do much worse than to watch this weekend's 'Dateline London' on the BBC iPlayer.  The usual solid contributions from Jo Coburn.  very well argued points from a Sudanese journalist called Nesreena Malik (I may have that slightly wrong) and others.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000j61p/dateline-london-09052020

 

 

 

 

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DJ360

 

You said this - We still have thousands of people flying into the UK unchecked.  I'm sorry but my view is that whoever they are and wherever they come from they should be aware.  'Land in the UK and expect to be FORCIBLY QUARANTINED for a minimum of 14 days.  If you don't like that.  Stay away.'

 

Actually the number of people flying into UK is now very small. Many are on transit flights.

 

As you know, my wife is in Russia, and I want her back as soon as possible. We wont know the actual rules until Boris speaks tonight but as I understand it, the rules are, only people from low risk areas are going to be considered. Russia is a low risk area. No problem with that. 14 days quarantine at a private residence.... I can do that easily for her. Easily provable too. Border control wont have any issue with my proof of address, our relationship, or her previous history in visiting the UK.  No use of public transport? I pick her up in the car at Heathrow.  700 mile drive but I am cool with that. No point in staying in London as there is bog all to do anyway. So for me this is good news, in fact the best I have heard. It means that I can focus on the plans to get her home at last. 

 

Actually quarantining her for 14 days will be a relief -  she wont go down the shops and buy crap we dont need. 

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DJ, define "assault" weapons... A fist could be defined as an assault weapon. "Assault" weapon is a term the ignorant media invoked, technically there is no such thing, ask any Vet, they laugh at the terminology. Now if you mean AR15's, then all they are are small caliber semi automatic rifles.

I must add the media don't define SKS rifles as "assault" rifles, mysterious that is, so it appears the media charactorizes assault weapons from how they look, not how powerful they are or the calibre used. Incidently, the SKS was the common high power rifle used by the USSR, China and a few other asian countries after WW2 up until the 70's. It's about the same size calibre  as a 30 cal rifle used in deer hunting and larger game hunting, semi auto too.

I must inject, the media uses some odd terms like automatic semi rifles...NO SUCH THING EXISTS on earth. And Automatic rifles ceased to be available to the general population in the 1930's. The only rifles that are automatic these days are for the military, police and old refiles still in circulation and owned by federally licensed people. They require registering with the BATF, local police chief and the county Sheriff, they also requires a federal annual license with a hefty fee, plus to own one requires an expensive, extensive background check that can take as long as 5 years to complete. Most legal gun owners just can't be bothered with the "red tape" so just give up even wanting an auto weapon.

 

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VG, do your own research instead of relying on the lame stream media which doesn't report very many true stories. In fact two major "newspapers" this side of the pond have had to post retractions to their ludicrous finger pointing lies in the last couple of months.

I've read so much history on the media, who old Joseph Goebbels's would be so proud of had he been alive today.

Good book on the media by an insider who now has over 40 years as an investigative journalist, written ten years back now, but even more relevant to today..."Stop The Presses" by Joseph Farah, an excellent read and well worth borrowing stealing or even buying. I bought my copy and couldn't put it down until the last page was read.

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I might also add, nothings changed with the media in over 250 years, still lying dogs.

I'm reading a book called "The Jefferson Lies" about the lies told about Thomas Jefferson, seems the media of his day were just as bad as our media of today. The author debunks all the lies about Jefferson told today and how they came into being.

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I don't see annyone here claiming that the media are all saints, but the alternative pushed by Trump and other Wannabe Dictators, is that the only truth is their truth.

You know perfectly well that every time somebody mounts a valid attack on Trump, which, by definition, has has no defence against. he then cries 'Fake News'.  The man is a fraud.  And an idiot.

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AS I'm a little off topic, I'll make this the last one.

Someone mentioned Executive Orders, several of us debated them some 20 plus years back, they are in a pretty grey area of law called "Colour of Law"

Many of the guys I debated to researched the authority of EO's and came to the conclusion they ONLY apply to federal government workers, in part because of Art 1 sec1 of the Constitution.

Again, most would say why federal workers, isn't DC in the US...Errrrr DC IS THE US!! Don't ask me to explain that, 25 years of research could end up with me getting typists cramp. Basically each state, note the lower case s, have autonomy over their day to day running. AND the Supreme Court and several other state Supreme Courts have stated on record there are three definitions of United States, note the upper case S and U. The correct way to call this united nation is "united states of America".. Long story and many many hours of research that can very deep and involved. Like many others who have spent hundreds of hours of research, I recommend others to just do their own homework.

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I hate to say this to an intelligent man DG, but you show signs of "media indoctrination" I'm not being rude, but even if I show you cast iron evidence, you'd refute it.

End of debate and back to the topic.

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34 minutes ago, Ayupmeducks said:

DJ, define "assault" weapons...

 

It doesn't matter whether my terminology is correct.  Maybe they are 'semi automatic rifles'. I really don't care.  But.. any Countrey, especially one which claims to be democratic.. has no valid place for idiots like this using the fact that they are armed to the teeth to force their views on the rest of the population and attempt to intimidate democratically elected Govt. They look and act like big soft kids who like playing at soldiers.

marine_scout_snipers_with_ss_flag-1.jpg

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The problem is that carrying guns is endemic in the USA and it's such a vast country with so many redneck backwoods areas that it would be totally impossible to introduce a licensing scheme. The sale of firearms could be prevented but I doubt the legislation would ever be passed.

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 Do you think the "very well argued points from a Sudanese journalist" earns your plaudits because it mirrors your philosophy and is the same message you preach? Big bad Tories, 10 yrs austerity etc etc. Had she praised the government I wonder if you would still say the same. It was though on the whole quite reasonable with almost no sign of BBC bias...

 

Andrew Marr show was also worth a look if only for the oft misquoted statistician who clarified, for me at least,  the way the stats are compiled. Oh and there was a vapid talking head from the government who spent some time saying bugger all.

 

A lot of what Ayeup posted is true but the situation in the US viewed from this side of the pond long ago descended into farce. The dodgy financials, arrogance, dirty tricks and bully boy tactics of their government is depressing.

I find it difficult to understand  the amount of flag waving and drum beating they go in for about democracy and yet by any definition of the word - they're not, they don't have it.

 

To be fair we really shouldn't call Trump, he set out and against the odds got the top job, not only that, he has gone on to make a total mockery of the Presidential office, embarrassed huge swathes of the American people and still retained support for his half arsed utterances and barmy ideas.

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'Assault rifle' is a generic term and most will understand what it means.

 

ALL weapons are by definition assault weapons. Ask the deer with a bullet in its brain from a rifle or the black guy on the wrong end of a shotgun and I'm fairly confident they will consider themselves well and truly assaulted.

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