Anything Political

[Brew 5,420]

Just read Keir Starmer's  comments as reported on the BBC news  and he's already off on the typical Labour rant and whinge.

"The Labour Party I lead will do our bit to offer solutions". He said and utterly fails to do so or offer a single idea during one of the most serious problems this country has ever faced in peacetime.

A kiss to the backsides of essential workers to show what a grand caring, sharing chap he is.

Bashing the rich is of course obligatory for him, as it was for Corbyn despite them being multi-millionaires.

 

Like many before him he seems to have avoided any real commitment to a policy other than 'radical and relevant' but does not say what that actually means.

 

So, it's business as usual then...

[Brew 5,420]

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

In other news:

 

https://carmonreport.com/world-news/jacob-rees-moggs-firm-accused-of-profiteering-from-coronavirus-crisis/

 

Quel surprise...

 

1 hour ago, Stavertongirl said:

I suspect this isn’t the only firm doing this. 

 

Not just companies, I will have quite a capital gains tax bill come the end of the year and I make absolutely no apologies for it.. 

I see little difference between making a profit buying and selling shares (and paying tax) and gaining a profit by investing in an ISA, (and paying zero tax).  One is dealing direct, the other is still dealing but indirectly.

[roger peatman 337]

2 hours ago, Brew said:

Just read Keir Starmer's  comments as reported on the BBC news  and he's already off on the typical Labour rant and whinge.

 

 

So, it's business as usual then...

 

And he kindly told us all that he will be pointing out all the mistakes the Government has made in handling the crisis - what a "thoroughly nice bloke"

[LizzieM 9,510]

10 hours ago, Stavertongirl said:

I suspect this isn’t the only firm doing this. 

Yes, what about the billionaire James Dyson making ventilators ........ suppose he’ll be supplying them free to the NHS? 

[Rob.L 1,090]

6 hours ago, roger peatman said:

 

And he kindly told us all that he will be pointing out all the mistakes the Government has made in handling the crisis - what a "thoroughly nice bloke"

Not what he said at all.

 

“Under my leadership we will engage constructively with the Government, not opposition for opposition's sake. Not scoring party political points or making

impossible demands. But with the courage to support where that's the right thing to do.

But we will test the arguments that are put forward. We will shine a torch on critical issues and where we see mistakes or faltering government or things not happening as quickly as they should we’ll challenge that and call that out.”

[DJ360 6,730]

11 hours ago, Stavertongirl said:

I suspect this isn’t the only firm doing this. 

 

I'm certain it isn't.

[DJ360 6,730]

10 hours ago, Brew said:

 

Not just companies, I will have quite a capital gains tax bill come the end of the year and I make absolutely no apologies for it.. 

I see little difference between making a profit buying and selling shares (and paying tax) and gaining a profit by investing in an ISA, (and paying zero tax).  One is dealing direct, the other is still dealing but indirectly.

 

 

Brew, you will note that I made little comment other than to post the link.

As I've been at pains to point out more than once, I accept that we live in a Capitalist World. 

 

However, I also have been at pains to point out that in my view Capitalism must be constrained by Govt as it has no inherent social conscience or morality and allowed to proceed unfetterred it brings misery to millions and obscene wealth to a few.

 

In the context of the current World Coronavirus crisis, I have no doubt that there will be profiteering, and that also, many will make fortunes by perfectly 'legal' means.

What I find questionable in the extreme, is the way in which some people seem quite happy to make deeply insensitive comments and pronouncements about the 'opportunities' provided by 'prevailing environments', when thousands are dying, economies are collapsing and millions are being impoverished.

 

I really don't want to hear what the 1% have on their tiny, grubby, profit obsessed little minds.

 

As for Starmer.. He's only just been elected and already you are tearing into him.

 

He is quite right to state that he and his party will hold the Govt. to account because there is no doubt that they have acted too slowly and not too wisely.  He has also promised cooperation where appropriate.

Remember.  The present Govt is acting with impunity while Parliament is effectively suspended.  It's a wet dream for low lifes such as Cummings, the ERG etc. and they need watching very, very closely.

[roger peatman 337]

Elsewhere, writing in an article in the Sunday Times, Sir Keir said failure to provide enough protective equipment for frontline workers and delays over testing had been "serious mistakes" in tackling coronavirus.

He said that ministers took too long to explain why they were "so far behind" on testing.

With the government having promised it will dramatically increase coronavirus testing to 100,000 a day by the end of the month, Sir Keir said its "greater clarity" over testing "should have come sooner".

 

These will be the "mistakes'.

[Rob.L 1,090]

Exactly. Holding the government to account, as someone has to.

[Brew 5,420]

I actually agree with most of your post but think government does quite a good job of restraining the unacceptable face of capitalism - though there will always be exceptions no matter who runs the show.  Some remarks are as you say  insensitive, in our judgement not in others. Not everyone plays nicely with political correctness. 

 

You seem surprised at my comments about Starmer though I don't know why. It's quite clear he's grandstanding, using Covid to take cheap shots at an embattled government,

"They are taking to long' "They don't have enough", " They won't say when it will end", "they made serious mistakes".....blah blah blah… 

'They acted too slowly' you say, 'not too wisely you say' - hindsight is a wonderful thing I say.

 

I don't remember Labour or any opposition party screaming we need more PPE, we need more masks, we need more ventilators etc, etc before the Covid crisis. I said earlier omniscience is in short supply and though we agree about Johnson as a man he and his government have so far done as much as any other round the world and better than some.

 

Of course the executive should be held to account but sitting on the fence Corbyn style shouting yah boo is not exactly constructive criticism.

 

I'm at a loss to understand but prepared to be educated over the plan for 100,000 tests a day. Testing frontline staff is obvious and will remove infected personnel. It may help with data collection, to map where the most infections lie, though collating local information will do that far quicker. Testing anyone else is just  a nonsense. Drive through testing stations serve no purpose and will be a waste of time, money, effort and resources.

[HSR 286]

Would the Labour party responded any quicker, possibly, but only by a week,  thankfully got my parents in Lock Down...about a month ago...

 

Still having to risk the streets myself..I only have MS,  banning people from jogging on public streets, would be a great help. 

 

What happened to Jogging on the spot,

Sit Ups & Press ups,  and why, this sudden obsession in exercise in the first place!

Behave like normal...Order a pizza, watch a box set and leave the streets to the people with a carrier bag...

 

 

[Oztalgian 3,298]

4 hours ago, Brew said:

hindsight is a wonderful thing I say.

Brew, I once had a boss who had 20/20 hindsight and after the end of any major project would hold a review of what went right and what didn't. In his eyes very little went right and if only we had not done that, changed this or re-engineered that the project would have gone much better.

So after being called into his office and asked to lead an international project I casually asked "could you tell us now what, how and where we are likely to go wrong before we start on this one" It was the last time he played Monday morning quarterback

[Alpha 176]

21 hours ago, Brew said:

Just read Keir Starmer's  comments as reported on the BBC news  and he's already off on the typical Labour rant and whinge.

"The Labour Party I lead will do our bit to offer solutions". He said and utterly fails to do so or offer a single idea during one of the most serious problems this country has ever faced in peacetime.

A kiss to the backsides of essential workers to show what a grand caring, sharing chap he is.

Bashing the rich is of course obligatory for him, as it was for Corbyn despite them being multi-millionaires.

 

Like many before him he seems to have avoided any real commitment to a policy other than 'radical and relevant' but does not say what that actually means.

 

So, it's business as usual then...

 

I'm totally unfamiliar with the background of Kier Starmer, however, I strongly suspect that his next rant will no doubt be to lead a revolt toward reversing the Brexit decision. In his current position as leader of the Opposition he is able to criticise Government performance , make non-committal claims of Labour Party objectives, including nationalisation, without fulfilling any of those objectives. Like his predecessor, plenty of talk and waffle with no commitment to achieving anything.

[radfordred 6,284]

Alpha I think you post reads perfectly well without quoting Brews massive post, what do the deep pocketed one & moderators think? 

[denshaw 2,872]

No idea what to think, I'm at my second home in Scotland.

[DJ360 6,730]

22 hours ago, Brew said:

You seem surprised at my comments about Starmer though I don't know why. It's quite clear he's grandstanding, using Covid to take cheap shots at an embattled government,

"They are taking to long' "They don't have enough", " They won't say when it will end", "they made serious mistakes".....blah blah blah… 

'They acted too slowly' you say, 'not too wisely you say' - hindsight is a wonderful thing I say.

 

I disagree totally.  We need an opposition and we need this Govt. held to account.  They have got much wrong.

 

Let's firstly not forget that for 10 years the Tories have been cynically and deliberately underfunding the NHS.  Also, despite their protestations, they have increased the involvement of private enterprises in the delivery of  healthcare.  Sometimes with very poor results.  Meanwhile it is well documented that many on the right have personal interests in privatised healthcare and are quietly lobbying to achieve a US style insurance based system.  I don't think they are doing so for the benefit of patients.

 

The result of all of the above is that the NHS was on a knife edge of capacity and resiliency even before Coronavirus arrived and there were constant reports of patients queueing in corridors, shortages of nurses, doctors, beds etc.  Also, the Tories scrapped the Nurse training Bursary and so on.  All of this is well documented and undeniably a situation which was deliberately and cynically created on the Tories' watch.

 

The Tories have implicitly admitted as much as they scramble to try to come up with policies which will 'protect' (what's left of) the NHS.

 

As for their early response to CV.  They knew about this virus from at least early January.  Quite possibly late December.  They did almost nothing, yet they proved that isolating ppeople brought home from affected cruis ships was a success.  vYet they died bugger all to isolate or otherwise control the virus being brought in by air passengers.

 

They did almost nothing.  I have seen no evidence that they started to purchase kit, increase capacity or do anything else much until well into March.  at the very least.. two months late.  They then produced the idiocy of the 'Herd Immunity' aproach, when it was clear that the WHO advocated testing and that those countries which had been most successful in supressing the virus were using extreme lock down and testing as a way forward.

 

I personally started being very careful about hygeine in mid Feb and was basically socially isolating for weeks before  the Govt 'asked' the public to do so.

I was accused of panicking.

 

Govt. also refused EU cooperation over kit supplies and abandoned mass testing.  It is also reported that they ignored offers from existing ventilator manufacturers who were seeking to cooperate with suitable companies to expand production, yet they were happy to endorse offers from Dyson and JCB, both oddly enough major Tory Party funding contributors.  I'm surprised they didn't ask the Weatherspoons bloke to knock up a few ventilators too..

 

So yes.  They made mistakes and they were too damned slow off the mark by half.

 

It is also unforgiveable that their first move was a budget which they would have slagged off mercilessly had it been delivered by Corbyn..  It's not so much the borrowing and spending. but the fact that the last thing on their mind was protecting the poor, the vulnerable, the zero hours contracts the unemployed, the homeless, etc. etc.

 

22 hours ago, Brew said:

I don't remember Labour or any opposition party screaming we need more PPE, we need more masks, we need more ventilators etc, etc before the Covid crisis. I said earlier omniscience is in short supply and though we agree about Johnson as a man he and his government have so far done as much as any other round the world and better than some.

 

I've already said it.  It may be true that CV would overwhelm any health service.. but ours was crippled from the start and that is absolutely, unequivocably down to 10 years of the Tories.

 

22 hours ago, Brew said:

I'm at a loss to understand but prepared to be educated over the plan for 100,000 tests a day. Testing frontline staff is obvious and will remove infected personnel. It may help with data collection, to map where the most infections lie, though collating local information will do that far quicker. Testing anyone else is just  a nonsense. Drive through testing stations serve no purpose and will be a waste of time, money, effort and resources.

 

Think of it as roughly parallel to a fire.  Your first move is to 'knock it down' by using water, foam or whatever.  That is basically 'Self Isolation'.

You prevent further spread by creating Fire Breaks.  That is basically Social Distancing.

 

Then, when you have a falling rate of infections and deaths.. and at some point decided by people far better informed than me.. you start to look out for 'hot spots', 'flare ups' etc.  Obviously with a fire they can be seen, or detected with infra red, and dealt with.  With a virus, the only way is to identify cases and 'clusters', by stringent testing and contact tracing.  That is why we need testing.

[DJ360 6,730]

13 hours ago, Alpha said:

I'm totally unfamiliar with the background of Kier Starmer, however, I strongly suspect that his next rant will no doubt be to lead a revolt toward reversing the Brexit decision.

 

So far, Starmer has not shown himself to be so willing to lie to the Queen, break the Law and attempt to silence Parliament from a position of minority as Johnson was.  So I think you can park your hysteria on that one for the moment.

 

However, as leader of the opposition, if his party, and other known anti Brexit parties were in agreement.. he could quite legitimately campaign for such a thing.

He would however first have to win an election and secondly hold, and win a referendum. I'd argue that even rabid Brexiteers really ought to be worrying about other things in these 'strange times'.

 

13 hours ago, Alpha said:

In his current position as leader of the Opposition he is able to criticise Government performance , make non-committal claims of Labour Party objectives, including nationalisation, without fulfilling any of those objectives. Like his predecessor, plenty of talk and waffle with no commitment to achieving anything.

 

Are you serious? Are you really claiming by default that your precious Tories only ever make promises they can fulfil and always tell the truth.. the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Words fail me.

[DJ360 6,730]

I should add that since Johnson has been hospitalised, I obviously wish him a speedy recovery.  And if he recovers as we all hope he will.. maybe in future he will take a rather less avaricious and rather more humanitarian view towards our NHS.

[Brew 5,420]

                I did say the executive needed someone to call them to account. The new boy grandstanding, trying to impress the faithful with rhetoric and supposition does little to convince me he is any different to the same old tired Labour politicians who have been consistently rejected by the electorate.

‘The government have got much wrong’ – tell me of one that hasn’t.

 

It’s time we gave the old stale comments about 10 years of austerity a break. We can moan and argue until we’re blue but it will not take us forward. It’s time we stopped obsessing about it and looked forward for a change.

 

Is the NHS underfunded? Yes, but not just as a result of Tory austerity. It has been so under every government since its inception. The NHS is a bottomless pit, a huge sponge that means it will always be on a knife edge.  It will never have all the money it wants and it’s disingenuous of Labour or anyone else to say otherwise.

 

The speed of response to the virus could have been quicker; equally it could have taken much longer. It was a judgement call based on best advice and only history will tell us if it was right or wrong.

 

There was never a ‘maybe’ about the health service being overwhelmed. It was always going to be a certainty and every country was the same. Not one foresaw or was prepared for the scale of that which is with us at the moment. 

 

The EU did not and does not have a huge stock of supplies they were willingly to share. They offered to include us in their procurement efforts, our government, for whatever reason thinks it's not necessary. It’s what governments do – make decisions.

 

If the budget was one that the Tories would slag of if it was from Labour also works the other way. If, as you seem to suggest, it was in line with Labour principles why didn’t Corbyn welcome it instead of slagging it off?

 

I don’t think your analogy of fire works Col. Data collection to plot the spread is far quicker and more accurate if they use the results of testing and treatment. Testing the general population tells you nothing. They could be infected within minutes of getting the all clear. so I’m not really convinced.

 

Last point, it’s very late. Are you suggesting that Labour only ever make promises they can fulfil? That they will always tell the truth without obfuscating and ‘spinning’ the facts to fit?

 

 

[HSR 286]

4 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I'm surprised they didn't ask the Weatherspoons bloke to knock up a few ventilators too..

 

Seems unlikely, last time I  went in a spoons, last summer's heatwave, pumps were down, bottled beer only..

[Alpha 176]

10 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

So far, Starmer has not shown himself to be so willing to lie to the Queen, break the Law and attempt to silence Parliament from a position of minority as Johnson was.  So I think you can park your hysteria on that one for the moment.

 

However, as leader of the opposition, if his party, and other known anti Brexit parties were in agreement.. he could quite legitimately campaign for such a thing.

He would however first have to win an election and secondly hold, and win a referendum. I'd argue that even rabid Brexiteers really ought to be worrying about other things in these 'strange times'.

 

 

Are you serious? Are you really claiming by default that your precious Tories only ever make promises they can fulfil and always tell the truth.. the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Words fail me.

 

I suspect that immediately you are assuming I am a Tory or that I have any meaningful political or even religious leanings. This is equally presumptuous.

It is merely a criticism that the leader of the Opposition of any colour can, from their seats in Parliament, take the opportunity to raise any criticism of the executive, their acts or omissions, without having to qualify or justify their own actions or accountabilities. As they do not hold any executive powers and, therefore, cannot be held accountable for any of their political or economic policy objectives reaching fulfilment. Unless, of course, when given the opportunity by the electorate.

Let me say this, I sincerely believe I backed the right horse, politically.

It is my opinion that Kier Starmer is a ‘stirrer and a ‘band waggon jumper’. Take it or leave it and move on.

[radfordred 6,284]

I have read the above but not the large quote (I read that yesterday) & still understood your reply? 

[DJ360 6,730]

12 hours ago, Alpha said:

It is merely a criticism that the leader of the Opposition of any colour can, from their seats in Parliament, take the opportunity to raise any criticism of the executive, their acts or omissions, without having to qualify or justify their own actions or accountabilities.

 

No.  That is most emphatically NOT what you said. You did not refer to 'any' oposition', you specifically targetted Starmer with a totally speculative rant about Brexit.

12 hours ago, Alpha said:

It is my opinion that Kier Starmer is a ‘stirrer and a ‘band waggon jumper’. Take it or leave it and move on.

 

And yet in your previous post you claimed to know nothing about him. ..... 

[DJ360 6,730]

20 hours ago, Brew said:

It’s time we gave the old stale comments about 10 years of austerity a break. We can moan and argue until we’re blue but it will not take us forward. It’s time we stopped obsessing about it and looked forward for a change.

 

We do need to move forward, but not by forgetting the past. 

 

We accepted the general 'goodness' of the German population post WW2, but that didn't mean we wrote off the actions of the Nazis or stopped pursuing the worst offenders.

 

It will be a long time before I forget that the population of the UK was punished by the Tories, for the actions of a small number of rogue bankers, who not only went, but remain, unpunished for their nefarious actions which caused a World economic crisis.

 

It will be a long time before I forget that those same banks which were happy to receive huge sums of public money to 'rescue' them from the results of their own greed, and whose senior execs walked away scot free from their criminal actions, are now dragging their feet when asked to return the favour to UK business.

 

The UK population paid for that.  The greedy b******ds in the banking fraternity got bonuses.  Am I angry?  Too right I'm angry.

 

It will be a long time before I forget that the Tories used the 2008 crash as an excuse not only for Austerity, but for an assault on public services, welfare the NHS, Local Govt., etc., etc. Partly because of their infantile approach to public finances, and partly because they are ideologically opposed to any sort of collectivist approach to society, and especially if that approach cuts them out of the profits.

 

It will be a long time before I forget that they further attempted to cover their tracks by setting UK society against itself, with their despicable lies about benefits and benefit claimants.. propagating the myth of the Benefit Scrounger, despite all evidence to the contrary, their vicious attack on the Disabled and their half arsed 'roll out' of 'Universal Credit', which was, and remains an unmitigated disaster.

 

It will be a long time before I forget the deliberate stirring of Xenophobia and Racism as the Tories quietly stoked the myths around EU Migrant Workers and failed to clearly delineate the categories of immigrant, migrant, worker, scrounger, legal, illegal etc.  It all suited their agenda and reached a high point of vacuous immorality with May's 'Hostile Environment'.. to which were added the Windrush Scandal and the shameful failure to act over Grenfell.

 

It was not Brexit which split Britain.  It was the Tories and their even more extreme funders and fellow travellers who split Britain..enabling Brexit.

 

I will neither forget, nor forgive.

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

Is the NHS underfunded? Yes, but not just as a result of Tory austerity. It has been so under every government since its inception. The NHS is a bottomless pit, a huge sponge that means it will always be on a knife edge.  It will never have all the money it wants and it’s disingenuous of Labour or anyone else to say otherwise.

 

I disagree.  And this is why....  All previous Govt.s even under Thatcher maintained funding for the NHS at or around inflation.  Also, no previous Govt I'm aware of attempted to privatise the NHS to the extent enacted by this Tory administration.  This lot have effectively CUT NHS funding via below inflation funding rises whilst busying themselves with carving up the 'take'.  Key here is their desperation to 'cash in' on Health provision by fixing it for the likes of Branson and others to profit from misery.

 

I'm happy to look at different health funding models..except for the evil US model, but we must start from some consensus.  The NHS is not simply a 'Business Opportunity' for arseholes like Rees-Mogg.. and I make no apology for my intemperate language..

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

There was never a ‘maybe’ about the health service being overwhelmed. It was always going to be a certainty and every country was the same. Not one foresaw or was prepared for the scale of that which is with us at the moment. 

 

I agree we were always likely to be overwhelmed.. but we were in a particularly weak position because of Tory cuts and NHS staff are dying as a result.

I'm going to make this point in bold capitals for the benefit of the Xenophonbic and Racist in our ranks.

 

ALMOST ALL OF THE NHS AND SOCIAL CARE STAFF WHO HAVE DIED AS A DIRECT RESULT OF TREATING VICTIMS OF CORONAVIRUS, HAVE BEEN OF BLACK OR ASIAN ORIGIN. SOME, HAVE EVEN RETURNED FROM RETIREMENT TO HELP AND HAVE DIED AS A RESULT.

THINK ABOUT THAT.

 

Also interesting that Germany still has low death rates and the Govt. 'panel' squirmed when asked about this today.  They are stalling.. as they have been for weeks..

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

The EU did not and does not have a huge stock of supplies they were willingly to share. They offered to include us in their procurement efforts, our government, for whatever reason thinks it's not necessary. It’s what governments do – make decisions.

 

Yes, it was a 'sharing' scheme But Boris and his mates made a 'knee jerk' anti EU response and we lost a potentially valuable source of kit. Another opportunity missed through arrogance.

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

If the budget was one that the Tories would slag of if it was from Labour also works the other way. If, as you seem to suggest, it was in line with Labour principles why didn’t Corbyn welcome it instead of slagging it off?

 

 

Because you are obfuscating to suit your argument.  Labour is not opposed to the spending, but to the recipients thereof.

 

I'm saying that spending and borrowing to the level announced by Sunak in the budget.. would have been slagged off by the Tories if proposed by Labour. ..and I stand by that.

 

Labour's objection is not to the spending and borrowing 'per se', but to the intended recipients of the funds.. who. oddly enough.. are Banks and major corporations.  And who will repay this borrowing?  Here's a clue. it won''t be Banks and Major Corporations.  It wil be the long sufferiing UK tax payer.  We are still waiting for the Chancellor's generosity with our money to filter through to those most likely to suffer from this crisis.

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

I don’t think your analogy of fire works Col. Data collection to plot the spread is far quicker and more accurate if they use the results of testing and treatment. Testing the general population tells you nothing. They could be infected within minutes of getting the all clear. so I’m not really convinced.

 

Nobody is suggesting testing the general population, but surely you see the logic.. once the spread is under control.. of targeting 'hotspots' with testing?

 

The alternative is to accept that the bug is out there and will continue spreading until it has killed all it can.  Given that I'm pretty vulnerable by all measures.. that's not a society I'd be comfortable to re-engage with.

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

Last point, it’s very late. Are you suggesting that Labour only ever make promises they can fulfil? That they will always tell the truth without obfuscating and ‘spinning’ the facts to fit?

 

No.. of course not.  But it wasn't me who raised that issue.

[Alpha 176]

10 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

No.  That is most emphatically NOT what you said. You did not refer to 'any' oposition', you specifically targetted Starmer with a totally speculative rant about Brexit.

 

And yet in your previous post you claimed to know nothing about him. ..... 

 

That is true, I am unfamiliar with Starmer because he is of no interest whatsoever to me. I do, however, recognise a 'stirrer', when confronted by one and like his predecessor, Starmer is also taking the opportunity to 'jump on the bandwaggon' when criticising Government policies, in this time of crisis, from the seat of Parliamentary immunity.

 

Any leader of the Opposition given the opportunity may criticise the actions or omissions of the executive. Like the majority of the electorate during the last landslide election, I did , in an expression of distrust in the Labour Party and their rhetoric, vote in favour of the present executive . Sorry! but the Red Flag is not for me. Move on.