Anything Political

[catfan 14,793]

Another reason Labour were hammered at the last general election, with ministers like her it was no surprise.

 

[Alpha 176]

With her above as of yet another poor ministerial or government example, as with the UK politicions and politcal parties are all institutionally untrustworthy, deviant and disonest. 

 

We were railroaded into the EU by Heath who received a financial reward for his action.

 

We have successive governments, by their weaknesses and miss-guided judgements, have encouraged crime, violence, drugs, illegal immigration and human trafficking on an unprecedented scale.

 

We have psychopaths, thugs and domestic violators, who murder, maim and and torture without a finger laid on them.

 

We have leaders who are too cowardly to declare war on terrorism and subversion and who time and time again betray the peoples trust by applying weak legislation that cannot be implemented or implemented without it being even weakly or unintentionally enforced.

 

The promised land fit for heroes who, by choice or consciption, did not fight for situations that allowed children snatched by some Stalinist police force in the middle of the night based on some feable whim of an Inquisition principle.

 

Who because of its inconvenience still allow prisoners or temporary released prisoners continue to murder and intimidate their familes and other relatives.

 

These heroes (not footballers or celebrity 'heroes'?) did not fight for foreign religions to dominate what was for years a peaceful co-existance and to undermine schools by the all knowledgable and fashionable reformers.

 

Nor did they fight to be restricted in their free choice of voice that gradually would be eroded and re-institutionalised by the wet few as ''descrimination'. 

 

They did not risk their lives where the guilty NHS executive managers escape with their names and pensions intact where they allowed unequalled deaths to have occurred in their name which, even to the most simple, would be termed as manslaughter if not murder. 

 

Nor did they expose their lives to ruin where their truths and solid values,  to run the risk of being singled out as right wing fascists.

 

They did not care to risk their lives to be silenced when outspoken against the angry mobs who violate our streets and set out to destroy our earlier way of life and to be attacked and beated for daring to intervene or object to the yob behaviour that has now become a common site in our cities.

 

Great Britain! Great shame.

[Brew 5,421]

That's a fair turn of rhetoric  Alpha, I hope you develop your arguments further and possibly give us a little more detail.

[DJ360 6,730]

16 hours ago, Oztalgian said:

I left school in the mid 60's and I am almost certain we had careers advisors then as I remember being told that as I was good with my hands I should be an Engine Room Artificer and suggested the Merchant Marine as a career. I had no idea what an artificer was so I looked it up in a dictionary and decided it was not for me.

 

Yes.. I'm sure there were Career Advisers in the mid 60's, but IIRC, it was only around 1968 when Govt. gave 'permissive powers' to Local Education Authorities to set up a Careers Service based on their Education Dept.  In areas where this option was not taken up.. which as far as I'm aware included Nottingham, it was not until 1972 when all Local Education Authorities were required to set up a service.  So it is likely that any advice you received was from the Youth Employment Service.. which was an offshoot of the Department of Employment. I'm unclear as to the level of training and, frankly, competence of those employed as advisers at the time.. but I think it's a fair assumption that attitdes were different to now.. on all sides.

'Ownership' of Career Guidance has been a contentious issue since the early days of such as the 'Unemployed Workmen's Act 1905', which set up the earliest Govt. backed 'Labour Exchanges'.. and the ' Unemployed Juveniles (Choice of Employment) Act' of 1918... which recognised that Labour Exchanges were not suitable places for young people.. and arranged for services to be delivered in schools....

there is another issue which persiste to this day..  Employers like to blame Careers Advisers for not 'Steering' young people into their industries.  Colleges and 6th forms complain bitterly that Career Advisers are 'enticing their students away'. etc.. when in truth Advisers are simply trying to offer independent advice to enable their clients to make informed decisions.

 

But I digress..

 

I'm intrigued as to the agreed basis of your meeting with an 'Adviser'.  What was 'the deal'?  If he/she simply looked at you and attempted to stamp 'Artificer' on your forehead.. then clearly they were crap. But why did you not say.  'I don't want to be an artificer... do you have any other suggestions?' If you didn't feel you could say that.... then the meeting was a failure from the start.

 

I started building my relationship with my caseload from Year 9..talking about  GCSE Option Choices.. but also introducing other concepts such as Decision Making, Self Assessment and so on.  By the time we got to Year 11 (5th Form).. most of my Caseload knew me, and they knew that the 'One Off' interview which most of them had was just to produce a plan of action detailing their 'Next Steps'..according almost always to what they wanted. So, it might be.. make an application for a college course.. speak to a tutor about likely exam results.. read about an occupation..or whatever. It was entirely 'Client Centred'. ..and it was based on them having some knowledge of the 'Opportunity Landscape' which they were about to enter.

 

I could go on but I'll spare you... for now.    

[DJ360 6,730]

11 hours ago, catfan said:

Another reason Labour were hammered at the last general election, with ministers like her it was no surprise.

 

 

I'll see your Diane Abbot and raise you..

Priti Patel.. As incompetent as they come..

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

8 hours ago, Alpha said:

politcal parties are all institutionally untrustworthy, deviant and disonest. 

 

Deviant?  Do tell...

What do you propose as a solution?

 

8 hours ago, Alpha said:

We were railroaded into the EU by Heath who received a financial reward for his action.

 

Really?

 

8 hours ago, Alpha said:

We have successive governments, by their weaknesses and miss-guided judgements, have encouraged crime, violence, drugs, illegal immigration and human trafficking on an unprecedented scale.

 

Evidence? Examples?

8 hours ago, Alpha said:

We have psychopaths, thugs and domestic violators, who murder, maim and and torture without a finger laid on them.

 

I'm getting scared now... please tell me where these people are!!

 

8 hours ago, Alpha said:

We have leaders who are too cowardly to declare war on terrorism and subversion and who time and time again betray the peoples trust by applying weak legislation that cannot be implemented or implemented without it being even weakly or unintentionally enforced.

 

 

I don't understand this sentence.

 

8 hours ago, Alpha said:

The promised land fit for heroes who, by choice or consciption, did not fight for situations that allowed children snatched by some Stalinist police force in the middle of the night based on some feable whim of an Inquisition principle.

 

You really lost me there..

 

8 hours ago, Alpha said:

These heroes (not footballers or celebrity 'heroes'?) did not fight for foreign religions to dominate what was for years a peaceful co-existance and to undermine schools by the all knowledgable and fashionable reformers.

 

Eh?

 

OK, I give up, but I'd second Brew's request for more expansion/elaboration..development of your arguments.

[radfordred 6,284]

Quick check Owd Prits shoes 

[HSR 286]

What amazes me...no reference to bed sharing 24 hour taxi drivers

, sweat shops paying under the minimum wage, 

Over a million illegals by the

government's own admission.

Unlikely to go for test..All going under the radar,  not entitled to furlough but everybody needs to put food on the table...

The flipside of this, I'm happily surprised how they appear to have conquered the London Corvid issue...

 

London centric with resources?

 

 

 

 

[Oztalgian 3,298]

7 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I'm intrigued as to the agreed basis of your meeting with an 'Adviser'.  What was 'the deal'? 

It was done via a face to face interview supported by a review of my school reports and speaking with the teachers and yes I did say I did not want to be an artificer as I did not want any part of the armed forces or merchant marine. He did say that he thought I would be better suited in a technical/engineering role he offered some suggestions and industry types but said ultimately the choice was mine.

I only commented on the basis that there was some form career advice available in the mid sixties. I was not aware of which organisation provided it.

At the time many had already decided to work in the local mines as the money on offer was often irresistible with student and trades roles in mining, electrical and engineering

[Alpha 176]

8 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

Deviant?  Do tell...

What do you propose as a solution?

1. to quote: "The Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000 made the ages of legal consent for heterosexuals and homosexuals equal and the legal age of consent for homosexual people was changed to 16". Most of parliament voted for the age of consenting to 'gay' relationships to be lowered to 16 years of age. Guess why.

 

Really?

 

 

Evidence? Examples?

 

I'm getting scared now... please tell me where these people are!!

2. Just one example of a multitude: Tate Modern, South bank. 6 year old boy thrown off 100ft balcony. Maniac thug pleads he heard voices. I bet!

 

I don't understand this sentence.

3. We have hundreds of illegals entering this country from places that breed terrorism and whom appear to be welcomed into the UK with open arms. We have cyber attacks from counties seeking to trade with us yet seek measures to undermine our national security. You know who!

We have Russian terrorists who openly use toxins and radio active material to kill UK citizens in our cities who appear to be able to wander through the streets unchallenged. London Bridge attacks and more. Read the news!

 

You really lost me there..

4. We have so called social services who in the early hours of the morning have been known to remove children from caring , though troubled parents yet - miss the the really hard cases like 'baby P' amongst other too numerous incidents to cite here, and often the social workers' fall for the sob stories! "The child fell off the settee" and sustained multiple fractures, internal injuries and massive bruising. Any more examples necessary?

 

Eh?

5. We call footballers heroes for scoring a goal (really brave) yet we often fail to read of real gallantry where our real forgotten military heroes often discreetly relate  to our country becoming tainted. One example being he site of terroristic religious leaders who are able to openly preach subversive dogma to others in the streets of London while the police, passively stand there and merely, look on! Because its politically prudent to do so in order not to offend minority religious bodies. If you happen to be a christian, which many service and ex-service personnel are, it must be quite galling to watch if you have lost collegues in fighting for British values and to many the British way of life they were brought up to believe in. Read on and reflect what is was like before the sixties!

OK, I give up, but I'd second Brew's request for more expansion/elaboration..development of your arguments.

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

2 hours ago, Oztalgian said:

I only commented on the basis that there was some form career advice available in the mid sixties.

 

Yes, absolutely there was. I don't think I said any where that there wasn't, but apologies if I gave that impression. What I queried was the quality and underlying training of the advisers operating at that time.

From what you say it does sound as if your adviser was operating pretty well and did accept that any final decision was yours.

 

There has been something identifiable as Career.. or maybe more correctly 'employment' advice since at least the 19thC and possibly before that, though not Govt funded or even remotely universal.  The 'Egham Free Registry' in I think the 1880s is often quoted as very early example of an Employment Exchange and there were also such things as Apprenticeship Committees overseeing the recruitment of Apprentices, though the criteria were often as much based on a candidate's moral character, religious observance etc.. as their actual occupational suitability.

 

Early Labour Exchanges were not concerned so much with Career Guidance but simply a recognition that there could be unemployment in one place and labour shortages elsewhere, which could be addressed simply by putting unemployed people in touch with potential employers.

 

The official Govt. position on Unemployment remained that it was entirely the result of fecklessness, lack of moral fibre etc... Tebbit's views were not new. There was no recognition that unemployment could result from structural, seasonal and other factors affecting the economy.

This only changed in 1905 when the 'Unemployed Workmen's Act' but that was far from perfect.  For another time maybe... 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

13 hours ago, Alpha said:

1. to quote: "The Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000 made the ages of legal consent for heterosexuals and homosexuals equal and the legal age of consent for homosexual people was changed to 16". Most of parliament voted for the age of consenting to 'gay' relationships to be lowered to 16 years of age. Guess why.

 

 

I don't need to guess.

Most intelligent people have worked out that homosexuality is not a casual 'lifestyle choice', but an inescapable fact for a proportion of the population. It therefore makes sense that the age of consent for all forms of sexual activity should be the same.  Anything else is discriminatory.  Your use of the word 'deviant' is at the least very provocative and unneccessary.  What you hint at regarding parliament and politicians is just groundless speculation.  Of course there are homosexuals in politics as in all walks of life, but I doubt they are any more prevalent.

If we use the word 'normal', in its statistical sense, rather than its looser sense.. it is clearly not 'the norm', to be homosexual.  However, it is and always has been normal for there to be a proportion of the population who are homosexuals, plus others who do not conform to a strict male/female split. 

You may not like it.. but homosexuality is not going away. No amount of ridicule, assault, name calling, mockery, imprisonment, murder, criminalisation, forced chemical castration or other measures have, or ever will change that reality.

 

13 hours ago, Alpha said:

2. Just one example of a multitude: Tate Modern, South bank. 6 year old boy thrown off 100ft balcony. Maniac thug pleads he heard voices. I bet!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/06/teenager-jonty-bravery-who-threw-child-from-tate-modern-balcony-admits-attempted-murder

 

An autistic and disturbed young man did this. There is no excuse.. but in his head there was a reason. If you want to call him a maniac thug that's your call.  He admitted what he had done and he has been sentenced to a minimum of 15 years.  Life is not as simple as you appear to think it ought to be.  Any more examples from your 'multitude'?

 

13 hours ago, Alpha said:

3. We have hundreds of illegals entering this country from places that breed terrorism and whom appear to be welcomed into the UK with open arms. We have cyber attacks from counties seeking to trade with us yet seek measures to undermine our national security. You know who!

We have Russian terrorists who openly use toxins and radio active material to kill UK citizens in our cities who appear to be able to wander through the streets unchallenged. London Bridge attacks and more. Read the news!

 

'Illegals', by definition, are not 'welcomed with open arms.'  They are illegal and therefore largely 'under the radar'. If caught they are deported.  We could have a discussion about whether sufficient resource is given to this issue and I might agree with you.  But we'd need to start from facts.. And we'd need to be open about on whose watch this situation has developed. 

 

Cyber attacks are now a fact of life. We suffer them from China and Russia.. at least.  I dare say we return the compliment, but I wouldn't expect our security services to admit it.  I wouldn't trust America in this regard either.

I rather doubt that those two Russians wandered about 'openly using toxins'.  They clearly did no such thing.  They arrived quietly and apparently legally, then behaved criminally but hardly obviously.  They weren't challenged because they weren't seen to be acting criminally and had left before their crime became apparent.

London Bridge Attacks.  I'm as appalled as you by these attacks but again.. what do you suggest?  Much of this stuff results from our own Govt's actions in the Middle East.

 

13 hours ago, Alpha said:

4. We have so called social services who in the early hours of the morning have been known to remove children from caring , though troubled parents yet - miss the the really hard cases like 'baby P' amongst other too numerous incidents to cite here, and often the social workers' fall for the sob stories! "The child fell off the settee" and sustained multiple fractures, internal injuries and massive bruising. Any more examples necessary?

 

Again.  There have clearly been problems but we also need to recognise funding cuts, constant Govt interference with recruitment and training of Social Workers..impossible caseloads, etc.  There's also the fact that society at large expects 'them' to solve all problems.

Again.. what do you suggest?

 

13 hours ago, Alpha said:

5. We call footballers heroes for scoring a goal (really brave) yet we often fail to read of real gallantry where our real forgotten military heroes often discreetly relate  to our country becoming tainted. One example being he site of terroristic religious leaders who are able to openly preach subversive dogma to others in the streets of London while the police, passively stand there and merely, look on! Because its politically prudent to do so in order not to offend minority religious bodies. If you happen to be a christian, which many service and ex-service personnel are, it must be quite galling to watch if you have lost collegues in fighting for British values and to many the British way of life they were brought up to believe in. Read on and reflect what is was like before the sixties!

 

I think we need to be clear here.  Please explain exactly what you mean by 'our country being 'tainted' ?

 

I agree about the 'hate preaching', but I think it was stopped some years ago.

 

I have nothing but respect for our Armed Forces.. but they are not fighting a patriotic war at present.  They are not defending us against Hitler. they are being used to further what the Govt. of the day perceives to be our ( or their) Political Interests... whether that means hanging on to American coat tails. or maintaining our political influence in the Middle East . ...which doesn't have a lot of 'British Values'.. but has a fair bit of oil..

 

[Brew 5,421]

On 7/2/2020 at 5:25 PM, Alpha said:

We were railroaded into the EU by Heath who received a financial reward for his action.

 

As far as I know Ted Heath was awarded the Charlemagne Prize. Such luminaries as Clinton and Blair have also won it at different times.

It is awarded to those who are considered to have promoted  Europe in general and the EEC, as it was then, in particular. The prize was given to Heath for a speech after De Gaulle vetoed our application, probably as a compensation for hurt feeling rather than an incentive or inducement to try again.

There are differing versions of the amount he was given ranging from 45,000 to 750,000, it depends on who is telling the tale.

It's a bit of a stretch to say it's a reward for frog marching us into Europe. The prize was given in 1963, we didn't join until 10 years later..

 

17 hours ago, Alpha said:

Most of parliament voted for the age of consenting to 'gay' relationships to be lowered to 16 years of age. Guess why.

 

Homosexuals have been around since we descended from the trees and it's a mystery why  they are called 'gays'. I really don't give a damn who sleeps with whom.

I’m not quite so tolerant of those who consider themselves non binary which to me seems more of a social construct than a physical fact.

The existence of intersex (hermaphrodite) people does not negate the reality that we are sexually dimorphic. A person’s birth gender is a fundamental fact of biology, it does not and cannot change.

They are by  definition deviant, though the word is commonly (and wrongly), used with pejorative connotations.

 

 

The tragic case at the Tate Modern by a maniac (a perfectly proper description), was unknowable before the fact to the authorities. No one can seriously think that had his intentions been known he would be allowed to wander free. 

 

As Col comments illegals are by definition not welcome and the border force costs a fortune to the taxpayer keeping them at bay. How successful they are is moot.

There is a ground swell of opinion among some that we are invaded by hordes of foreigners in the UK. The fact is our population over the last 15 years has only grown buy approximately 250,000 a year, and they  were not all immigrants.

 

The so called ‘cyber war’ is the old fashioned cloak and dagger spy game all grown up in a nice new suit - it’s been going on since the birth of the nation state.

The Russians killed one of their own in London, they also completely ruined Trotsky’s day in Mexico. The Israeli forces have done the same and the Americans killed Bin Laden. I have no doubt we have done as much -  we’re just better at hiding the fact.

Predicting the London Bridge attack and others was impossible unless you stopped and challenged every person on the bridge. "Excuse me sir do you intend killing anybody in the next half hour or so"?

 

On 7/2/2020 at 5:25 PM, Alpha said:

The promised land fit for heroes who, by choice or consciption, did not fight for situations that allowed children snatched by some Stalinist police force in the middle of the night based on some feable whim of an Inquisition principle.

 

Calling social workers Stalinist is doing them a great disservice. They make mistakes like everyone else and no one can reasonably  expect them to be infallible.

Baby P was beyond awful and social services have an account to answer but remember they didn’t kill him, his carers did. 

We can never know how many baby P’s have been saved by the authorities’ early intervention.

 

On 7/2/2020 at 5:25 PM, Alpha said:

Nor did they fight to be restricted in their free choice of voice that gradually would be eroded and re-institutionalised by the wet few as ''descrimination'.

 

I have some sympathy for the view that our freedom of speech is being eroded at an alarming rate. But if we are not to erode it further then radicals must be allowed a voice provided they stay within the law. We may not like what they say but who makes the decisions, who will be censor?...  you?... me?

 

There are those who take offence where none intended (the row over white girls wearing cornrow hairstyle comes to mind), but I would suggest they are a vociferous minority with hidden agendas. Sadly it’s true certain sections of society do appear to receive a more tolerant treatment for fear of upsetting them, however if an individual behaved the way some football supporters do they would quickly be brought to book. Sometimes it’s more prudent to control and contain rather than confront.

 

As someone born in the 40’s I’ve a pretty good idea of life before and throughout the 60’s.

The freedoms we had, I’ll take those - the deprivations we had you can keep.

 

 

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

7 hours ago, Brew said:

The tragic case at the Tate Modern by a maniac (a perfectly proper description), was unknowable before the fact to the authorities. No one can seriously think that had his intentions been known he would be allowed to wander free. 

 

I'm not so sure about this.  I've heard a recording purporting to be of the perpetrator stating how he thought that if he could do something along the lines of what he did it would make him famous, publicise his opinion that his mental health issues were not being properly addressed etc. The recording was made before  the event.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51389881#:~:text=In the autumn of 2018,investigation with the Daily Mail.

 

[Brew 5,421]

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

I'm not so sure about this.

 

Nor am I after reading this. 

[DJ360 6,730]

I'm wondering if anyone can offer a viewpoint on what constitutes 'British Values' and/or the 'British Way of Life'.

 

 

[PeverilPeril 3,284]

7 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I'm wondering if anyone can offer a viewpoint on what constitutes 'British Values' and/or the 'British Way of Life'.

 

 

They are such a difficult question to answer DJ. I could not possibly give an opinion because values, culture and expectations have changed so much during my lifetime. 65 years ago when in my teen's it would have been easy because we were still 'Empire' minded and 'Ruled the Waves', so we thought - all very white of course. Thank goodness that things have changed. Maybe 'Britishness' should be described in a more modern and healthy context, bearing in mind how we profited from and embraced our former colonies? The question is ageless due to the various incursions by the Vikings, French etc. What is 'Englishness' of course is a different question. 

[DJ360 6,730]

Thanks for your reply PP. 

 

I certainly agree with the central thrust of your reply.  Things have changed, and so they should. I well recall going into school in my Wolf Cub Uniform ( I think they call them 'Cub Scouts' now) on 'Empire Day'.

I'm certain it didn't extend to going into Secondary school on what, after 1958 became 'Commonwealth Day', in my Scout uniform.

 

That said, I suspect that both Empire and Commonwealth Days say more about attitudes, than values.

 

I've googled 'British Values' and to my amazement found that they are apparently now decided by our Government and are required teaching in schools.

 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=British+Values&t=ffnt&ia=web

 

It seems there are four.. or five.. depending what you read...

 

 

https://www.twinkl.co.uk/teaching-wiki/british-values

 

Quote

 

What are the 5 British Values? (2020) Explanation & Critique

By Chris Drew, PhD

In 2014, the UK Government created five fundamental values that it proclaimed were the unifying values that were fundamental to British society and cohesion.

The values were designed to balance freedom of thought, expression and choice in a liberal society with the need to maintain a safe and secure society.

The five British values are:

• Democracy
• Rule of law
• Individual liberty
• Mutual respect
• Tolerance

 

 

I don't have any issue with any of the above.  However.. it's interesting that some of those who are most vocal in demanding a 'return' to 'British Values', for e.g., Robinson/Yaxley-Lennon.. Farage.. Many, many Brexiteers etc... seem intent on ignoring all five. Draw your own conclusions.

 

Sadly, it's also evident that many in the Party/Govt. which formulated these 'values' aren't too hot on them either....

 

Johnson, Cummings, Jenryk etc. etc., blah blah..

 

Still.. moving on.. It seems clear that the above values are in no way exclusively British.  They would I think sit well with many countries, certainly in the 'Western Democratic' lot.

 

So..  are those who 'go on' about 'British Values' more in love with some notion of 'British Exceptionalism'?.... Discuss.

 

And we've not yet touched on the 'British Way of Life'.

 

So what's that then?  Who can define it?

 

Is it going down the pub. watching the match, doing  bit of gardening.. watching 'Eastenders'...flying to Benidorm..eating Fish and Chips..queueing for anything and everything.. playing Polo, shopping in Tesco..?

Or is it going to church every Sunday.. does that have to be Catholic or 'Proddy'.. Does Islam, or Hindu, or Sikh count?

 

What is it about our habits that sets us apart.. and from whom?

[PeverilPeril 3,284]

DJ - The 5 British values are all open to interpretation. For me 'Britishness' is simply to follow Christian principals. I am not a believer but Christian principals have formulated our society and me.

Muslim and other religious principals almost run in parallel. It is only extremists, zealots and manipulators of power that distort and ruin these principals.

 

Just take the first principal -

DEMOCRACY. Well, politicians are professionals at how to bend it to suit their own party beliefs. So it's not a 'principal' really.

All the other principals have their own slants too.

 

Maybe we should be talking about 'Identity'. How does a British person differ from those of other Nations. Tricky because Britain is a union of nations who have different identities.

[Stavertongirl 1,719]

On 7/6/2020 at 1:29 AM, DJ360 said:

 

Many, many Brexiteers etc... seem intent on ignoring all five. 

  
Really?  What about some (note I said some not many many) remainers?

 

[DJ360 6,730]

14 hours ago, PeverilPeril said:

DJ - The 5 British values are all open to interpretation. For me 'Britishness' is simply to follow Christian principals. I am not a believer but Christian principals have formulated our society and me.

 

There's a lot in that PP.  It was pointed out to me years ago that like you.. although I'm not a practising Christian or believer.. my basic morality is grounded in Christian teachings.   But then.. as you also point out the major Abrahamic religions along with other major World religions all basically preach peace, tolerance, honesty, love of fellow man etc.

 

It seems to me that people are people and in general will be decent.. whatever religious or political climate they are raised in.  Equally, neither 'professed' religion nor any other sort of morality seems to bother certain sections of society. We have liars, thieves, fraudsters, bullies and worse in all sectors of society, from the least educated and poorest, to the wealthiest and most powerful. Including our Prime Minister.

[DJ360 6,730]

14 hours ago, PeverilPeril said:

Maybe we should be talking about 'Identity'. How does a British person differ from those of other Nations. Tricky because Britain is a union of nations who have different identities.

 

Well I think you see it already PP.  The first issue is 'Define a British Person.' In an increasingly cosmopolitan world this is might seem more difficult, but I contend that it was only ever a Social/Political Construct, long before we were as Cosmopolitan as we are.

Take for e.g., the mid 19thC at the height of the British Empire.  What was a 'True Brit'?

Was it a vastly wealthy Aristocrat living in a Stately Home?, or his servants?, or some poor sod living in a slum.  All were 'British', but maybe some were more British than others?  It's clear to me that Jingoism dominated British ideas of Britishmess in the 19thC and beyond.  It's clearly related to the sort of stuff trotted out now by the Far Right.

 

 

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

14 hours ago, Stavertongirl said:

  
Really?  What about some (note I said some not many many) remainers?

 

 

Depends how you see it SG.

 

Firstly, I'm not singling out any individual, here or in general. 

 

But as I recall Remainers in general were broadly happy with our EU Membership... or at least saw any issues as best negotiated from within. The biggest accusation levelled at Remainers was that they wanted somehow to 'deny democracy', by 'blocking Brexit' in Parliament.  This was of course never the case.  The small 'Leave' majority was established by the Referendum.  Unfortunately, the manner of leaving wasn't.  There was no Referendum on the 'Deal'.  this was left to Parliament, which refused to be forced into unsuitable deals by Johnson or anyone else running a minority Govt.

So. Remainers might be undemocratic.. a bit.. but aren't really.  So maybe a bit guilty of breaching one of the 5 British Values, but not really..

 

So.. switch to the Leave Campaign. 

 

Driven by the likes of Farage, Ukip, later 'Brexit Party', plus a whole raft of nefarious shadowy characters looking both to profit from Brexit and establish a Far Right base. And of course the Conservative 'ERG', notably Rees-Mogg... and Boris Johnson, who finally found the populist Bandwagon on which to build his longed for powerbase... so he could pretend to be Churchill

 

1. Big Red Bus of Lies.  The 'Leave' Campaign has admitted this was pure propaganda and  lies. It was therefore specifically designed to undermine Democracy.  That's one British Value gone.

 

2. Ukip/Farage.  Blatant Racism.  Constant stream of lies/misinformation about immigration. Workers here legally under EU Rules.. (Just as Brits work in the EU) openly attacked by Farage. Deliberate obfuscation. Deliberate attempts to encourage a belief that the UK is 'overrun' with 'immigrants', with NO effort to be clear about difference between legal migrant workers, other legal immigrants, and illegal immigrants.

 

That's 'Tolerance' gone..and 'Mutual Respect'.. and 'Individual Liberty'...whatever that means..

 

3. Johnson deliberately lied to the Queen in efforts to 'Prorogue' Parliament. In doing so he was found to have broken the Law.  So that's 'Rule of Law' gone too.

 

I rest my case.

 

[Oztalgian 3,298]

DJ 360

Given that in the EU referendum Scotland voted 62% to remain and the apparent recent increase in Scottish nationalism do you see the beginning of the fracturing of the United Kingdom?

[benjamin1945 16,163]

I'm afraid i do Oz,,,if i may stick my 2 pennyworth in..........i'll be sorry,,but if i were a Scot i'd want Independance,,to get away from all the self serving Politicians we currently have....