Depressing and sad news

[nonnaB 4,900]

Watching the lunchtime news earlier it’s so sad the world has come to this. Fires in Hawaii, Canada and severe tropical storm in California. On top of this is the news of the 33 yr old convicted to life for the death of new born babies. She deserves to be hung drawn and quartered. After that we have a gang rape on a 19 yr old raped by 7 youths . That not being enough the mother of one of them said that she was a girl little repute.  Italy is appalled at this and hope it comes to justice for all .I’ve just read the comments that they wrote to each other during or after the act. Disgusting. I feel for kids growing up now , it wasn’t like that in our day is a song that we oldies keep on saying but it’s true. I fear for my grand daughter. Changing the subject is it Trogg who lives in Canada? Hope he’s nowhere near them.

[trogg 2,020]

Nonna no this Trogg lives in a cave in Mucky Ucknal. I believe a few Nottstalgians live in Canada.

 

 

[Jill Sparrow 10,327]

Sadly. Nonna, child abuse was just as bad if not worse in our day and earlier. The investigations into abuse in children's homes (in which I was involved) were horrendous. Child sexual exploitation still goes on. Working for children's services before I retired, I saw and heard some horrific things. The difference is that, these days, children are more likely to be listened to and believed. However  that doesn't mean it has gone away. Much of it has moved online. It's a very murky area and it makes you realise just how lucky you were to have decent parents because so many don't.

[Cliff Ton 10,488]

There was a lot of it going on in the past and people got away with it, because it was easier to stay under the radar. 

 

Now there’s a much wider public awareness of what can happen;  people are clued up about what to look for. The victims are more aware of what may be actually happening to them, and they are less likely to stay quiet under threat.

 

There are also more ways of reporting it, and the authorities are more likely to investigate. 

 

We hear about it more frequently now because there are now successful prosecutions. I wonder how many people were prosecuted in the 'good old days'.

[Jill Sparrow 10,327]

The difference between what happens today and what happened even 50 years ago as regards dealing with offenders in this field is astonishing.

 

When I was at primary school, in my final year, we had a student teacher for the final term of the academic year. He was a mature student and the moment he walked into the classroom, I instinctively knew there was something very wrong about him. No one else seemed to think there was anything amiss but, to me, it was akin to letting a tarantula loose in the classroom and I never took my eyes off him when he was present because I needed to know where he was. If he came anywhere near me, I moved out of his way.

 

Several teachers were moving on at the end of that term and the headmaster was faced with having to fill several teaching post vacancies. The mature student obviously impressed during his final TP because the head offered him a job for the September following his qualification.  Thankfully, I had left when he started as a qualified teacher.

 

It wasn't long before other teaching staff were raising concerns about his over-familiarity with children. Too touchy-feely by far.  He behaved very inappropriately with some children in particular, in the classroom setting and also in out of school settings. Never once was he reported to the police or the headteacher.

 

Eventually, his luck ran out and he was reported to the head teacher by the parents of a child whom he had allegedly sexually assaulted on school premises.  He was offered the choice of writing out his resignation to take immediate effect or, if he refused, summary dismissal.  He resigned.  The police were not involved.  Hopefully, if he applied for another teaching post, his reference would ensure that he wasn't employed ever again in a school setting.

 

This man is now dead. Apparently, he was reported to the police decades later by person or persons he had abused. They tried to find him but were too late.

 

Tragically, people like him will always be attracted to the teaching profession and they don't go around with 'dangerous' tattooed on their foreheads. What concerns me is that he had children of his own.  Today, the situation would be handled very differently.

 

[Brew 5,429]

Difficult to compare. the definition of child abuse has drastically changed in the intervening years. A clip round the ear, a smacked hand, even rattan stripes across the backside, once widely approved and practiced, is now considered abuse and a possible criminal offence.

[LizzieM 9,519]

A boy we knew was locked up and placed on the Sex Offenders Register for 10 years! 
He was a pupil at the school my boys attended.  He was a few years older than my kids and went off to Oxford to study Maths and then a PGCE.  My two were struggling a bit with Maths prior to GCSE and during Uni holidays Tim offered to give them extra tuition.  The boys weren’t at all keen on the idea and insisted on leaving the dining room door open when he was working with them.  I didn’t think much of it, in fact I sensed that they both thought he was gay!  Anyway he went on to teach Maths at Stowe School and then at Dulwich College and we didn’t see him for a few years, infact we’ve never seen him since 1998. Then one of my boys saw an article in the Telegraph (about 20 years ago) saying that ‘Tim’ had been charged with 4 counts of sexual assault against boys at the public school.  I’ve just ‘googled’ him and he’s still teaching but overseas and  in a senior and responsible position.  

[DJ360 6,734]

13 hours ago, Brew said:

Difficult to compare. the definition of child abuse has drastically changed in the intervening years. A clip round the ear, a smacked hand, even rattan stripes across the backside, once widely approved and practiced, is now considered abuse and a possible criminal offence.

 

What you are describing there is basically corporal punishment. Punishment by inflicting pain on the victim, whether from a parental 'slap' or more formal use of the 'birch', 'tawse', etc, and yes, norms, views and laws have changed.

 

That said corporal punishment is/was largely a public and accepted form of abuse.

 

What Lizzie, Jill, Cliff-ton etc are alluding to is sexual abuse, which generally occurs out of sight and is more difficult to identify, prove, etc. I don't think it's ever been publicly 'accepted' in the way more routine 'corporal' punishment was, at least not in the UK, unless we go back to when 'betrothal' occured at very young ages.

 

Of course Lucy Letby's crimes fall outside either of the above definitions.  Just cruel and unimaginable violence against helpless victims.

 

Back to sexual abuse. Of course the activities of the likes of Saville, assorted Priests, 'Grooming Gangs', Sports Coaches etc., fall very clearly into definitions of abuse, but  three 'cases' I recall from my time working in education, demonstrate that it's not always 'black and white', or simple to deal with.

 

1. The Head of a school I was working in in the 1990s was alerted to a 'relationship', between a girl in Lower 6th/Yr12. So the girl would be 16, the 'Age of Consent', but the teacher was both well over 18 and also in a 'Position of Trust', or I believe sometimes also described as 'Power and Influence'. So, even if the girl was a willing participant,the relationship was illegal.  As I understand it, the Headteacher invited the offending teacher to resign immediately, or face further consequences. The teacher resigned and I heard nothing more heard about the issue. Should the Head have involved the Police?

 

2. I was chatting to a girl who was a member at a Youth Club where I worked around the same time. She mentioned her 'boyfriend' and said that her Mum was a bit disapproving.. It transpired that the 'boyfriend', was her P.E. Teacher  from school and as I experienced a sharp intake of breath, she quickly said "But it's OK because I've left school now.." I didn't push the issue with the girl but did mention it to the senior youth worker at the club.  He knew all involved better than me, was aware and advised 'leaving it', for now. There were 'nuances' to the whole thing in that the girl was one of identical twins, both  'much in demand' by the local lads, and noted for their good looks.

In other respects they were far from identical.  One was loud, 'flirty', (even with club staff) and had something of a 'reputation'. The one I'm describing was much quieter,  more 'reflective' and never seen with the local 'lads'.

I didn't see the girl again until around 10 years later when she attended some Graduate Employment sessions I was involved in. She told me she'd married her P.E. teacher, was still happily with him, living in a 'sought after' area and with his support, had gone from being a 16 year old school leaver with few prospects, to gaining a Degree in English from University. So it seems that 'Leaving it..' Did no harm in that case.

 

3. I was interviewing a Year 10 (14..ish) pupil at a school for children with Moderate Learning Difficulties. Without any prompting, she 'disclosed' some disturbing info about her home life. I explained to her that I would need to discuss that with her Form Teacher. She was happy for me to do so.

When I approached the teacher he went into a flat spin and started panicking.. " I can't tell you anything'!!. It's all confidential!!!" etc.  It took a while to get through to him that I didn't want the 'gory details', but was obliged, by Child Protection/Safeguarding Legislation  at the very least to find out whether others were aware, that appropriate action was being taken and the appropriate authorities involved etc., because if that wasn't the case, I would be obliged to act.  He confirmed that was the case, so I explained to him that that was all I needed to know.  He finally understood my position and calmed down.

 

It's not always as simple as we'd like.

[Jill Sparrow 10,327]

And then there are instances where the allegations are totally unfounded. On my final TP in a small village school, a fellow student (male, tall, not particularly good looking but well built and sporty) was doing his final TP with year 6 which was the head's class.  She made the mistake of letting him take the class while she caught up with paperwork and she didn't supervise him sufficiently well.  She called me into her office after school one afternoon and broke down in tears. Parents had complained that he had made inappropriate advances to some of the year 6 girls, did I know anything about him/had I observed him doing anything untoward. The answer in both cases was negative. We worked in different buildings and hardly ever saw each other during the day.  He was removed by the college and was unable to complete his TP which meant he was unable to qualify.

 

I later discovered that similar allegations had been made against the previous head of the school: a male, approaching retirement age. He was suspended and, after a thorough investigation, cleared of any wrongdoing . However, mud sticks. He apparently contemplated suicide and, even when exonerated, did not return to the school, he was so traumatized by the allegations.

 

Even I didn't escape that place unscathed. One parent commiserated with me for the fact that my husband had left me for another woman. Really? She said she thought I was coping very well and supposed it must have been a great temptation of his job as an airline pilot!!

 

How did she know about this, I asked, playing along. Oh, it was the talk of the playground when mothers and grandmas waited to pick up their children at home time.

 

I didn't disabuse her of her ideas but it taught me a valuable lesson.  Where that gossip came from and how it got started I will never know.  I'm just a bit miffed about all the discounted foreign holidays I've missed.

[nonnaB 4,900]

When we lived in Nottingham and I was very small I was approached by a man, youth or aged person. We lived in Huntington st and all the the exits came out into a large cobbled yard. We had a family of 3 girls next door but one and going to and fro was easy to get to call them all . They were a lot older than me . One evening I left their house to go home. It was just getting dark when this person stopped me and started asking me all sorts of questions including what school

i went to etc then it got what colour knickers do you wear. At that point a heard a voice shouting at me to go home quickly and the man shot off. Apparently it was my friends mother who had watched me getting home. I shudder often when I hear these rape stories. I consider myself very lucky. Today I don’t remember much about my young childhood but that gives me nightmares.

[Jill Sparrow 10,327]

My mother impressed very firmly on me that I must never talk to strangers, either male or female. Hindley and Brady were apprehended in 1965, when I was almost 8 years old. Prior to that, few had ever considered the possibility that women could harm children.

 

One lunchtime as I was leaving Berridge Road juniors to go home for lunch (I'd be 8 or 9 by then and trusted to cross two roads on my own) I was beckoned by an elderly lady who stood at the gate of a house opposite the school. She asked me whether I would go to the corner shop to buy something for her and her gnarled hand held out the money to pay for the item. Her other hand grasped a walking stick as she leaned unsteadily against the stone boundary wall of her front garden.  I was torn between running like hell and doing as she asked. Eventually, I went to the shop which, although quite close, was probably too far for her to walk, bought the item and took it to her. She smiled, thanked me and handed me some sweets in a paper bag.  When I got home, I threw them away because I thought they might be poisoned! Child with an overactive imagination (!) and I have always felt ashamed of it. Such was the effect the Moors Murders had on parents and children at that time.

[loppylugs 8,429]

I don't see that as overactive imagination, just caution.  There's too many weirdos out there.

[Cliff Ton 10,488]

By an unfortunate coincidence there were two news stories last week which centred around historic child abuse - one connected with teaching/education, and one connected with religion; the two categories which seem to attract a certain type of person.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66580604

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66376157

[Jill Sparrow 10,327]

It's a very difficult problem to solve. Such deviants don't go around with the word 'danger' tattooed on their foreheads.  Sadly, it puts anyone who wants to work/volunteer with children and young people under suspicion.  The whole area is a minefield.

[MelissaJKelly 2,124]

We had a teacher whilst I was in primary who took over our class when our head teacher went on maternity leave and our usual teacher had to step in as head teacher. 

 

He told us stories about his large house with farm animals and advise whichever team won the points challenge at the end of term would have the prize of going to his house. As 9/10 year olds we were so excited at the idea and I couldn't wait to tell my Mum. Needless to say my enthusiasm wasn't met and she was horrified and told me there wasn't a chance in hell. She reported this to the school and mentioned other untoward things he had done - touching girls inappropriately and coming into the female changing rooms during swimming sessions. 

 

In later years when I was 18 this same teacher found me on Facebook and proceed to message me and tried to add me as a friend. I found this very weird but harmless. I have since found out he is in prison for rape and assault on girls whilst in lessons - all of which happened before he started to teach me. It makes my skin crawl and I still have nightmares to this day about him. 

 

Article below - 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-35495879.amp

 

[Jill Sparrow 10,327]

Lucky escape, Melissa, but also a mother who was sufficiently well informed and concerned about what her daughter was doing to step in and prevent you putting yourself in harm's way. Sadly, not all parents are as vigilant. If they were, this problem wouldn't be as rife as it has become.

[MelissaJKelly 2,124]

Absolutely Jill. Forever grateful that my Mum was switched on to what a strange man he truly was. I think it seems more rife today as more people speak out on it whereas back in the day it was very hush hush! In some ways times have changed for the better but not many!

[Beekay 5,198]

On a lighter note but in the same vein. When I first moved to Ticehurst E.SX., on my first week I was working in the playground in the primary school where we lived and worked. I heard a young voice say, "My ball has gone on the roof !"  So, wanting to create a good impression I fetched my ladder and said I'd fetch it for the girl. This I did and threw the ball down to the girls playing nearby. I went back to the ladder and just about to step off backwards when I heard a voice yell, " where are you two going with that ladder"? I turned round to see two boys walking away with me ladder. I would have stepped off into oblivion ! When I eventually reached ground floor, one of the boys asked, " Hey mister, are you the stranger we're not supposed to talk to"? Kept me eyes on the little buggers for the rest of my time there.

[Brew 5,429]

I don't think it more rife, just reported more. Growing there were several instances my friends and I went through but nothing ever came from the complaints

[plantfit 7,642]

I think you're right brew, it's reported more and more people are aware there are some strange people out there, shame really it only takes one strange person to get everyone else tarred with the same brush

 

Rog

[IAN FINN 817]

I would give you a 'like' Melissa but its terrible where do all the nutcases come from seems to be getting worse plus we have the stabbings a shootings when will it end?

[loppylugs 8,429]

On 8/21/2023 at 2:18 PM, Jill Sparrow said:

Sadly. Nonna, child abuse was just as bad if not worse in our day and earlier. The investigations into abuse in children's homes (in which I was involved) were horrendous. Child sexual exploitation still goes on. Working for children's services before I retired, I saw and heard some horrific things. The difference is that, these days, children are more likely to be listened to and believed. However  that doesn't mean it has gone away. Much of it has moved online. It's a very murky area and it makes you realise just how lucky you were to have decent parents because so many don't.

 

4 hours ago, Cliff Ton said:

By an unfortunate coincidence there were two news stories last week which centred around historic child abuse - one connected with teaching/education, and one connected with religion; the two categories which seem to attract a certain type of person.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66580604

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66376157

That's right CT.

I pastored for 12 years before I retired.  I made a point of never being alone with any children.  Nothing is more disgusting to me than taking advantage of a child.  One has to protect oneself from false accusation or misunderstanding also.  A position or reputation can be so quickly destroyed.  I cannot understand the mindset or wickedness of some.  

[mary1947 2,090]

When i was teaching Mature students at  Hucknall further Education center (which was part of Basford Hall Collage ) I found one of my students sitting in the store house and crying, the student was 27, I ask her if she had a problem and if so could I help, The student then started to tell me about her father in law, she thought her father in law was sexually abusing her daughter who was 4 years old. She ask me what she should do?  I was speechless I did not know what to say, so I just took her to speak with the Principal. Due to my student having  commitmentments  I never did see her again.

[MRS B 535]

My godmother used to live at Sutton on Sea and prior to that the old station house at Mumby. I spent a lot of my summer holidays there in my teens. Even now I can remember her husband, my Uncle, every time you passed anywhere near him used to lean towards me wanting to be a letch. I even discussed it with my cousin who was a bit younger than me and she said the same thing. It used to freak me out.

[mary1947 2,090]

Hi MRS B what is it with these men?   my uncle my mums brother did just the same with my mum. it was  a good job that my dad was not in the house at the same time,